Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#221

Post by VladRussian » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #164

mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

This is mostly nerds wanting to have something to argue about. For reasons I can't put my fingers on, nothing seems to irritate nerds more than the idea that they're oppressing people; it probably has something to do with the fact that so many of them were picked on growing up. The reality is that the stuff we're talking about here would, for the most part, be a firing offense at most companies.

>it probably has something to do with the fact that so many of them were picked on growing up.

and here we're talking about how perpetrating of stereotypes is a bad thing

edit: found a word for it in English - hypocrisy.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#222

Post by posabsolute » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

bkrausz wrote: post #153

Last year at FooCamp I went to a panel about women in tech (I believe I was the only guy) for two reasons: 1) I have no qualms about offending people if I feel my point is valid, and in fact enjoy being in situations where I risk such things (I find it incredibly rewarding to have meaningful discussions about things that are considered taboo). 2) To find out what the problem was Let me clarify #2: I didn't see a prob…

Personally I never saw that problem in all the companies I worked, but I can see how making yourself more prominent in tech can lead to harassment,

Would this not be the same in any industry or even worse?

We are probably the most vocal community and thus generating more conversations about it, but I don't see a lot of women in the construction fields, and I can picture them having a pretty bad experience there. What about any industry where the boss is a jerk that want to get laid?

I'm kind of joining some of you guys in wondering what the movements about getting more women involved in tech is about, I don't really think it needs more or less,

Like probably no one would start a movement to get more guys in a predominant women profession? frankly who cares?

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#223

Post by britta » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

rorrr wrote: post #173

pnathan wrote: post #59

I read a private blog of a lady in the games industry, and the level of ordure and harassment she gets is simply unbelievable. It's well beyond anything in the 'people are jerks, suck it up' level. I can well believe Skud got sick of it and is doing other things with her life. I'm going to come right out and say it - if you, or someone you know - has a penchant for writing these sorts of harassing emails, it needs to…

I don't get it. I worked with many female developers, female CTOs, female IT directors. In 10 years I've not seen any harassment towards them. I've never even heard general statements from male developers, like "women can't code". Am I oblivious, or maybe a different sub-industry?

If you're close to any of them, it may be interesting to ask them. A lot of women in technology (and women in general, and also people in general) choose to not talk much about bad experiences, for many reasons, so there is an underreporting effect - and a lot of harassment also isn't in obvious forms witnessed by other people. Some women are fortunate to not have had a lot of problems, of course - but if you ask a few, especially ones who speak or write publicly about their work, you'll probably hear some painful stories.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#224

Post by VladRussian » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #195

bkrausz wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the lack of magnitude of the problem. I don't think the problem is as prevalent in YC, one of the main circle of startups I know. Maybe that's because JL does a good job filtering out jerks, or maybe it's something inherent to the YC-compatible startups. Out of curiosity: was she talking to larger companies or startups? I am curious how prevalent the problem is in the larger startup comm…

Both. Very common problem: interviewers asking questions about who was going to take care of the kids. Actually happened: an interviewer displayed a picture of himself not wearing pants. That interview was in Chicago; I was in Michigan at the time, thankfully. I see no correlation between company size and occurrence of this stuff. I have friends who happen to be both notoriously successful in the tech field and femal…

>Very common problem: interviewers asking questions about who was going to take care of the kids.

how the interviewer would know about the kids to start with? Did he ask about it? That question is already illegal. Or was the fact of having kids brought up by the candidate? Then the candidate got what s/he was asking for.

>Actually happened: an interviewer displayed a picture of himself not wearing pants. That interview was in Chicago; I was in Michigan at the time, thankfully.

was he doing it only to female candidates? Do we know it for sure? Or may be we just promoting and reinforcing the stereotype that women are intentionally targeted?

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#225

Post by peterwwillis » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:53 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #198

peterwwillis wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I never blamed her. In my first point I note how people who give talks are subject to attack because they draw attention to themselves. I note how there are men (men who I know personally) who have been attacked as a result. I posit that this kind of behavior is not solely due to sexism. In my second point I equate running a geek feminist website with running any website wherein people who hate the idea…

I say sexism is fucked up, and this guy blames me for sexism in the tech industry. No, you didn't say that. You said it was inevitable and that people should suck it up and stop harping on it. You're not the victim here.

I did say that people should suck it up. I was referring to ignoring the treatment (online) as a better form of dealing with it than running away. But at the same time that confronting the attackers would be a more proactive effort. Not to stop harping on it. I specifically said women should mobilize and work proactively to prevent sexism in the industry, which is far from 'stop harping on it'. But thanks for cherry picking two things I said, displaying them out of context and inserting your own agenda.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#226

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:54 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #202

yummyfajitas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be OK if people often called you an abuser of women? MikeeUSA is not (as far as we know) an abuser of women. He is a person who sends unpleasant nonthreatening emails while peacefully sitting in his home. Your attempt to conflate people who initiate violence and people who express unpleasant opinions is dishonest. Further, you don't have any "right to be happy". No one does. You have the right to pursue hap…

You don't have a right to happiness, but nor do you have a right to inflict emotional distress on people. And when someone is emailing unpleasant thoughts to a specific individual as opposed to expressing them on a public blog, that's crossing a line from self-expression to harassment. It is, literally, making it personal.

[deleted]

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#227

Post by cygx » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:54 PM UTC

franticpedantic wrote: post #209

flatline wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this highlights the problem nicely: the recipient of the comment took it that way, and you don't seem to understand her response.

I think your attitude highlights a big part of the problem nicely as well. Whether or not women are more, less, or as interested in tech on average than men due to biological predisposition should be treated as a scientific question, not outright rejected as absurd because it could hurt someone's feelings. Maybe it's not a worthwhile question to examine, but to say it's wrong because it's offensive is incredibly unsc…

There is - and probably never will be - a scientific answer to this particular question, as establishing such an answer would involve taking a few thousand kids and raising them in isolation.

The offending statement is thus nothing more than unfounded gender-based stereotyping, which I consider sexist.

Personally, I suspect that social norms play a more important role here than genetics, so it's as ridiculous as the claim that because few people of Amish heritage hold tech jobs, people of Amish heritage are genetically less likely to want to do tech.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#228

Post by magicalist » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 7:03 PM UTC

franticpedantic wrote: post #209

flatline wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this highlights the problem nicely: the recipient of the comment took it that way, and you don't seem to understand her response.

I think your attitude highlights a big part of the problem nicely as well. Whether or not women are more, less, or as interested in tech on average than men due to biological predisposition should be treated as a scientific question, not outright rejected as absurd because it could hurt someone's feelings. Maybe it's not a worthwhile question to examine, but to say it's wrong because it's offensive is incredibly unsc…

but asserting that it is true without scientific evidence is also unscientific. It's slightly better than classic Flying Spaghetti Monster territory (or Russell's teapot, if that's more your style), in that the question is presumably falsifiable, but without evidence we're clearly in ideology land.

Considering that they chose this baseless assertion (and not, say, that His noodly appendage prevents women from entering tech, or that sunspots on Betelgeuse are somehow involved, or any of the infinite other possible falsifiable statements), we clearly are in harassment territory, and "would-be sympathizers" are hiding behind crap logic.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#229

Post by rwmj » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #218

tptacek wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both. Very common problem: interviewers asking questions about who was going to take care of the kids. Actually happened: an interviewer displayed a picture of himself not wearing pants. That interview was in Chicago; I was in Michigan at the time, thankfully. I see no correlation between company size and occurrence of this stuff. I have friends who happen to be both notoriously successful in the tech field and femal…

W T F ? "Actually happened: an interviewer displayed a picture of himself not wearing pants." How many people even have a picture of themselves without pants on at their fingertips, ready to display at a moment's notice?

Presumably they had this prepared knowing a woman was coming to interview. I would have gone directly to the police over this incident.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#230

Post by roel_v » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 7:09 PM UTC

jimwise wrote: post #7

No disagreement with the basic, point, but was a bit surprised by this quote: "So, here's our situation. We have a man (presumably; at any rate he appears to want to be identified as such) in the Australian Linux community, who targets women by sending them private abusive emails from a throwaway address and with a name that can't readily be connected to any publicly known member of the community. His ISP won't hand…

"Is it Bayley's position that ISP's should give out information on their users in response to warrantless requests -- from private individuals, no less?"

Of course, because there is no worse crime than harassing women and any and all civil rights are second to all efforts to punish those who do. Let's not forget that the OP is identifying with a movement where it is commonly advocated to reverse the burden of proof in rape cases.