Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#211

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:29 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #151

yummyfajitas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be OK if people often called you an abuser of women? MikeeUSA is not (as far as we know) an abuser of women. He is a person who sends unpleasant nonthreatening emails while peacefully sitting in his home. Your attempt to conflate people who initiate violence and people who express unpleasant opinions is dishonest. Further, you don't have any "right to be happy". No one does. You have the right to pursue hap…

The problem with your assumption is that (as any abuse counselor will tell you) abusive words are very often the precursor to violent physical action. As someone whose wife repeatedly received abusive and threatening phone calls and emails from a former co-worker who eventually showed up at her workplace waving a gun (and luckily was restrained by a security guard in the lobby!), I can assure you that Ms Bayley shoul…

The problem with the assumption that muslims are not terrorists is that (as any terrorism investigator will tell you) fundamentalist islamic words are very often a precursor to violent physical action.

See the problem with this logic? You can't paint all people holding certain beliefs with the brush of the small subset who engage in violent acts.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#212

Post by jbooth » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:29 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #203

DanBC wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, if you go hang out in your local university's maths (or physics) department There's the trans-gendered (male to female) mathematician who'd disagree. She says that when she used to give talks (as a male) she got respect, but now people say things like "Her brother was better" not realising it's the same person.

Maybe they just disrespect him because... let's face it, surgically mutilating your penis, taking a bunch of hormones and demanding that everybody call you "she" is just plain weird , regardless of what current orthodoxy says.

".. not realizing it's the same person."

He's talking about the difference between the response to a male and female, in other words highlighting sexism rather than transgenderphobia or whatever you call it. Thanks for putting yours on display though.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#213

Post by DanBC » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:32 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #203

DanBC wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, if you go hang out in your local university's maths (or physics) department There's the trans-gendered (male to female) mathematician who'd disagree. She says that when she used to give talks (as a male) she got respect, but now people say things like "Her brother was better" not realising it's the same person.

Maybe they just disrespect him because... let's face it, surgically mutilating your penis, taking a bunch of hormones and demanding that everybody call you "she" is just plain weird , regardless of what current orthodoxy says.

Except they do not know that she has had any surgery. As far as they know she's just a she, and that is the only reason she gets less respect.

(I'm trying to find the article, which is hard because there's many transgendered mathematicians.)

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#214

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

airlocksoftware wrote: post #147

mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

I can barely believe the things I'm reading on this page. Lots of comments similar to "It's just trolling, get over it." And "she's just reinforcing negative stereotypes of women by not being strong enough to handle the internet." And "men deal with negative comments all the time and don't whine about it." These are the exact attitudes that are the problem! Why can they not see this?

Could you clearly state "the problem"?

Based on what has been posted, it's hard for me to clearly see a problem beyond "in a society with free speech, some people will speak in ways that others dislike." That is a legitimate (unsolvable) problem, but I don't think it's the problem you are referring to.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#215

Post by zasz » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

franticpedantic wrote: post #209

flatline wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this highlights the problem nicely: the recipient of the comment took it that way, and you don't seem to understand her response.

I think your attitude highlights a big part of the problem nicely as well. Whether or not women are more, less, or as interested in tech on average than men due to biological predisposition should be treated as a scientific question, not outright rejected as absurd because it could hurt someone's feelings. Maybe it's not a worthwhile question to examine, but to say it's wrong because it's offensive is incredibly unsc…

People have historically used "scientific" evidence to prop up spurious claims that women and blacks were inferior to white men. [1] OP is probably reacting to that whenever people try to bring in biological explanations for gender gaps. If you want her to be more understanding to your hopefully pure motivations in seeking truth, you should also be more understanding of her recognition that people often hide bigotry behind science.

[1] See "The Mismeasure of Man," by Stephen J. Gould. Broca, a pioneering scientist into brain research, devoted a lot of effort to measuring brain capacity in skulls and thereby "proving" that women and blacks would never achieve as much as white men could.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#216

Post by bkrausz » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #195

bkrausz wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the lack of magnitude of the problem. I don't think the problem is as prevalent in YC, one of the main circle of startups I know. Maybe that's because JL does a good job filtering out jerks, or maybe it's something inherent to the YC-compatible startups. Out of curiosity: was she talking to larger companies or startups? I am curious how prevalent the problem is in the larger startup comm…

Both. Very common problem: interviewers asking questions about who was going to take care of the kids. Actually happened: an interviewer displayed a picture of himself not wearing pants. That interview was in Chicago; I was in Michigan at the time, thankfully. I see no correlation between company size and occurrence of this stuff. I have friends who happen to be both notoriously successful in the tech field and femal…

Well that question on kids sure is illegal to ask (I imagine an Anthony Weiner shot is also illegal come to think of it :-P).

I understand the touchiness on the subjet, which is why I enjoy frank discussions about it. However, I think it's harmful to the cause to make this difficult to talk about. The most powerful opponents to abuse are victims who can speak openly and frankly about their experiences. Touchiness, while entirely justified and understandable, is less effective than enabling intelligent discussions about sexism without the risk of being labeled "intolerant".

Agreed on the solution: intolerance for intolerance is the only long-term solution.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#217

Post by bitops » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #164

mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

This is mostly nerds wanting to have something to argue about. For reasons I can't put my fingers on, nothing seems to irritate nerds more than the idea that they're oppressing people; it probably has something to do with the fact that so many of them were picked on growing up. The reality is that the stuff we're talking about here would, for the most part, be a firing offense at most companies.

From "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson: they think they're too smart to be sexist.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#218

Post by mgkimsal » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #195

bkrausz wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the lack of magnitude of the problem. I don't think the problem is as prevalent in YC, one of the main circle of startups I know. Maybe that's because JL does a good job filtering out jerks, or maybe it's something inherent to the YC-compatible startups. Out of curiosity: was she talking to larger companies or startups? I am curious how prevalent the problem is in the larger startup comm…

Both. Very common problem: interviewers asking questions about who was going to take care of the kids. Actually happened: an interviewer displayed a picture of himself not wearing pants. That interview was in Chicago; I was in Michigan at the time, thankfully. I see no correlation between company size and occurrence of this stuff. I have friends who happen to be both notoriously successful in the tech field and femal…

W T F ?

"Actually happened: an interviewer displayed a picture of himself not wearing pants."

How many people even have a picture of themselves without pants on at their fingertips, ready to display at a moment's notice?

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#219

Post by xxdiamondxx » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:43 PM UTC

flatline wrote: post #189

endtime wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(once had somebody on HN tell me that women are genetically less likely to want to do tech![!!!!!!!]) Are you trolling? That does not seem to be a sexist or retrograde statement.

I think this highlights the problem nicely: the recipient of the comment took it that way, and you don't seem to understand her response.

I would say that if that comment was made without citing any scientific sources, its sexist.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#220

Post by pyre » Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 6:44 PM UTC

dreww wrote: post #137

peterwwillis wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

....I don't know how to fix the problem. Will empathizing more fix it? If so, i'll empathize like crazy. But I seriously doubt it will create change. Instead I try to point out what I see as some of the contributing factors to the problem in this particular case. I'm sorry I can't fix sexism, and i'm sorry i'm not being humbling and emotive enough to express that I find sexism wrong. But I don't agree that I am illus…

empathy will fix it. you are illustrative of the problem because you are a) ignorant of what harassment is really like b) apparently unwilling to imagine it and c) BLAMING THE HARASSED

  > BLAMING THE HARASSED

This is a mantra that I see a lot, but let's stop for a second. If I put a sign above my head that says "Murder Me," can I really be surprised if someone takes me up on the offer? Does stating that mean that I am attempting to absolve the person that murdered me of murder? No, it doesn't.

Put more simply, if you're going to crusade for a cause where the opposite side is likely to get nasty, you should probably be prepared for war. Did Martin Luther King Jr give up because the police brought out fire hoses?

That said, while I can't really empathize, I do sympathize, and find some of the examples of bad behavior that people are highlighting as having happened to women as atrocious. If I found out that someone at my company had shown a naked picture of himself to any interviewee, you can bet that I could make sure that it his/her career was ground into the pavement through word of mouth.