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Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

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Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#181
post #179
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the fed continues on it’s current course, I guess we’ll find out over the next few years huh?

I wish -- but I suspect we won't, sadly, because many factors are at play, including the move to remote work for many, many tech companies. If we see both higher interest rates and dramatic drops in demand, then everyone will be able to spin their own story out of it.

Eh, the demand shifted to more rural areas with the remote work shift, so nation wide the trend didn’t change much.

See the Case-Schiller index [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA]

Changes in interest rates will be quite visible there, unless millions of people get ‘snapped’ and their houses remain intact anyway.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#182
post #180
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I am not saying those other factors do not matter, obviously they do. But if it was "interest rates" driving everything -- then every area would be very expensive, not just the areas where there are high salaries and lots of inflow and basically zero new construction. The Bay Area population grew 7.4% from 2010 to 2020 -- that's 614,901 residents according to census. New construction in that same time period w…

Every area in the United States (and every major city) has gotten a lot more expensive! This tracks prices nationwide [ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA ] Everything else you’re talking about is from side effects.

We’re talking past each other. Every area has seen an increase in price, yes.

But not every area is very expensive.

The fact that a house in SF that costs $2m would go for $500k elsewhere is not a result of federal monetary policy, and it is not a result of construction costs. It is a result of supply and demand.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#183
post #181
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish -- but I suspect we won't, sadly, because many factors are at play, including the move to remote work for many, many tech companies. If we see both higher interest rates and dramatic drops in demand, then everyone will be able to spin their own story out of it.

Eh, the demand shifted to more rural areas with the remote work shift, so nation wide the trend didn’t change much. See the Case-Schiller index [ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA ] Changes in interest rates will be quite visible there, unless millions of people get ‘snapped’ and their houses remain intact anyway.

That graph doesn’t really prove anything, though, because interest rates and housing prices are already correlated through economic growth: fed raises rates when economies are hot, and lowers them when they’re not. Also house prices go up when economies are hot, and don’t as much when they’re not.

The most recent lull in prices correlated with a lull in rates, which kind of goes against your overall point of higher rates pushing prices down because the cost of capital increases? But maybe I’m misunderstanding your point.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#184

I'm a inactive General Contractor, and union electrician. I'm not going to read a 49 page pdf today. There are two things that really affect supply. 1. Government regulations is number one by a huge margin. We all know what that includes; zoning, persnickety council members who literally debate where a window is placed, the wood or stucco you can use, down to hedges, and even the color of your home. Look at what Bill…

Great comment. I would extend your experience here to the whole of economy.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#185
post #182
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every area in the United States (and every major city) has gotten a lot more expensive! This tracks prices nationwide [ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA ] Everything else you’re talking about is from side effects.

We’re talking past each other. Every area has seen an increase in price, yes. But not every area is very expensive . The fact that a house in SF that costs $2m would go for $500k elsewhere is not a result of federal monetary policy, and it is not a result of construction costs. It is a result of supply and demand.

That’s not what I’m referring to at all.

If the house in the sticks is $500k and the ‘same’ house is $2m in SF, my point is that without the fed pump, that house in the sticks may be $200k, and the house in SF $800k.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#186
post #185
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re talking past each other. Every area has seen an increase in price, yes. But not every area is very expensive . The fact that a house in SF that costs $2m would go for $500k elsewhere is not a result of federal monetary policy, and it is not a result of construction costs. It is a result of supply and demand.

That’s not what I’m referring to at all. If the house in the sticks is $500k and the ‘same’ house is $2m in SF, my point is that without the fed pump, that house in the sticks may be $200k, and the house in SF $800k.

I guess, but that graph you’ve been sharing isn’t super convincing.

Mortgage rates have been dropping pretty consistently since the late 80s but price growth isn’t super consistent: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US

Money was super cheap 2008-2013 too but prices were down on that period.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#187
post #186
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what I’m referring to at all. If the house in the sticks is $500k and the ‘same’ house is $2m in SF, my point is that without the fed pump, that house in the sticks may be $200k, and the house in SF $800k.

I guess, but that graph you’ve been sharing isn’t super convincing. Mortgage rates have been dropping pretty consistently since the late 80s but price growth isn’t super consistent: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US Money was super cheap 2008-2013 too but prices were down on that period.

Because of the ‘08 blow up caused massive restrictions in underwriting standards and willingness of lenders to pipe that easy fed cash through mortgages, which restricted the flow of cash in the following years. It caught up a couple years later though.

They had started to raise rates in late ‘06 and ‘07, which ‘pulled the string’ and led to the explosion. (The tide went out, and it turns out a great many people were swimming naked, to abuse a Buffett quote).

[https://images.app.goo.gl/RXGY22drR2pfCXX68]

Real estate is highly illiquid and often highly leveraged. It often takes years for market changes to be visible in the data, and sometimes pricing signals get hidden entirely in many markets (you’ll see a backlog that can be years long, but no price drops - just no sales).

It’s also market dependent, but influenced by the larger market (so think of each specific market as a ship, floating on the overall tide which is ‘cost of money/debt’).

Agents tend to always be selling, and tend to hide bad numbers. The Economists working for realtors are especially bad for this.

Sellers tend to not want to admit they’re desperate, and can often hold out for years. Buyers always complain that things aren’t cheap enough, but

It makes for noisy data and sudden surprises.

The short sale I bought in ‘09 for instance, closed for 50% less than the initial offer AT THE BANKS INSISTENCE because of steady shifts in underwriting and appraisal standards in the approx. 5 months it took to close. It took another 6 months before that price signal got disclosed publicly.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#188
post #187
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess, but that graph you’ve been sharing isn’t super convincing. Mortgage rates have been dropping pretty consistently since the late 80s but price growth isn’t super consistent: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US Money was super cheap 2008-2013 too but prices were down on that period.

Because of the ‘08 blow up caused massive restrictions in underwriting standards and willingness of lenders to pipe that easy fed cash through mortgages, which restricted the flow of cash in the following years. It caught up a couple years later though. They had started to raise rates in late ‘06 and ‘07, which ‘pulled the string’ and led to the explosion. (The tide went out, and it turns out a great many people were…

I appreciate this insight, and there's no doubt that most people buy as much house as they can afford, so prices go up when they can afford more ("money is cheap") all other things being equal.

Still, since we're talking about "solving the housing crisis", it's not clear how raising rates to reduce pricing solves anything, since this argument is somewhat circular: prices drop only because people can afford less, and if people can afford less, that price drop doesn't actually make housing any more affordable?

Again, am I missing something? If not I stand by my original "there's not enough supply to meet demand" observation and that "increase supply" might be an actual solution.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#189

Solving housing crisis requires making housing not an investment. Make very very very tax inconvenient to buy places for the sole purpose of renting them out. Do this, and most problems are solved. But banks and legislators have no interests in doing so, therefore nothing will ever solve housing crisis. Make peace with it. It will only get worse.

Drastically reducing rentals would crush job mobility/flexibility. There are a lot of problems with the rental market, but it's existence is not one of them.

Re: Solving the housing crisis requires fighting monopolies in construction (2020)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is less to do with Fed policy How did you quantify "less"? Low Fed rate made mortgage body 60-70% cheaper, hence prices are higher.

In a competitive market, prices are determined by the lowest seller, not the highest buyer.

prices are obviously determined by balance between supply and demand. Seller is obviously interest to rise his prices if there are many buyers competing for his bid.
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