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Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

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Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#181

Post by mcantor »

airlocksoftware wrote: post #147
mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

I can barely believe the things I'm reading on this page. Lots of comments similar to "It's just trolling, get over it." And "she's just reinforcing negative stereotypes of women by not being strong enough to handle the internet." And "men deal with negative comments all the time and don't whine about it." These are the exact attitudes that are the problem! Why can they not see this?

By definition, privilege is a lack of perspective--that includes [straight] [white] male privilege. That's why it's so hard for many guys (not just programmers) to understand.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#182

Post by drhayes9 »

peterwwillis wrote: post #89

A couple of points if I may: 1. If you speak at conferences, especially about a non-technical subject like "women in FOSS projects" (which is more likely to get sexists riled up), you are going to get unwanted attention. Pretty much every speaker who speaks on a controversial, or non-technical, or just media-glamorized topic is going to get harassed - if not hacked. It happens all the time to men and i'm sure it happ…

Your first two points are classic victim-blaming. "You are going to get unwanted attention." Well, yes: there are assholes out there. But you seem to be implying that she is at fault for attracting the assholes, rather than saying there shouldn't be assholes in the first place. We should focus on rooting out the assholes rather than throwing up our hands and saying there's nothing we can do.

I admit there's a fine line here. People doing obviously dangerous and stupid things should not be surprised when horrible things happen to them. But starting a website or speaking at a tech conference are neither dangerous nor stupid. Why are we taking a grin and bear it attitude here?

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#183

Post by hugh3 »

gatlin wrote: post #149

Another day, another HN thread about misogyny and sexism in STEM, and another sampling of "hackers" who can't seem to agree 100% that sexism, harassment, and stereotyping are categorically wrong. It's not even the overt sexism that is the problem. It's the educated troglodytes making up bullshit like "civilization has always been like this" and "she invited harassment with such bold feminism" and "this just proves wo…

Another day, another HN thread about misogyny and sexism in STEM

Actually, we're not talking about STEM in general, we're talking about computer programming in particular. As I was reading this thread, I was just thinking about how other parts of the STEM community aren't nearly so bad.

For instance, if you go hang out in your local university's maths (or physics) department, you'll find many of the same conditions. You'll find an overwhelmingly male group, ranging from slightly nerdy to very nerdy, with a sprinkling of a few women. But you won't find these sorts of problems occurring nearly so often.

Why? I think it's part of a culture of professionalism vs unprofessionalism, and it's largely age-driven. A university department is dominated (socially if not numerically) by people in their forties and fifties, giving the workplace a much older, quieter, more professional feel than you get in a tech company where just about everybody is in their twenties. It's just a matter of having plenty of adult supervision around, I think.

Linux user groups are even worse. They combine the worst features of a party (a lack of professionalism) with the worst features of a high tech workplace (a twenty-to-one sex ratio) so it's not surprising that bad things can happen there.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#184

Post by chc »

mtoddh wrote: post #148
peterwwillis wrote: post #89

A couple of points if I may: 1. If you speak at conferences, especially about a non-technical subject like "women in FOSS projects" (which is more likely to get sexists riled up), you are going to get unwanted attention. Pretty much every speaker who speaks on a controversial, or non-technical, or just media-glamorized topic is going to get harassed - if not hacked. It happens all the time to men and i'm sure it happ…

If the guy isn't posing a physical threat, suck it up and ignore it Judging by a lot of the comments on here, this seems to be what really makes people here upset. That she didn't just 'suck it up.' That she's complaining. A cardinal sin for men, since we get much more pressure to show that we can 'suck it up', are tough enough not to let things like this get to us, etc. The thing is, women are probably going to feel…

There's a history of violence against men initiated by men as well. AFAIK, men are more likely to be attacked by men than women are. (Not addressing the question of sexism — just the misconception that men are somehow "safe" from violence.)

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#185

Post by bkrausz »

tptacek wrote: post #161
bkrausz wrote: post #153

Last year at FooCamp I went to a panel about women in tech (I believe I was the only guy) for two reasons: 1) I have no qualms about offending people if I feel my point is valid, and in fact enjoy being in situations where I risk such things (I find it incredibly rewarding to have meaningful discussions about things that are considered taboo). 2) To find out what the problem was Let me clarify #2: I didn't see a prob…

I thought the same thing, and argued (I felt persuasively!) on behalf of that perspective for many years. Then I watched my wife Erin, who has as many years of experience in this industry as I do, interview for tech jobs. Please take my word for it that this is not a "few bad apples" problem.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the lack of magnitude of the problem. I don't think the problem is as prevalent in YC, one of the main circle of startups I know. Maybe that's because JL does a good job filtering out jerks, or maybe it's something inherent to the YC-compatible startups.

Out of curiosity: was she talking to larger companies or startups? I am curious how prevalent the problem is in the larger startup community, as I genuinely don't know what % of valley companies with < 10 employees show signs of sexism (though I believe that question may be too vague and ill-defined to answer properly).

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#186

Post by ordinary »

jxcole wrote: post #178
jxcole wrote: post #33

Somebody sends her an email that she doesn't like to her publicly available email address and she decides to quit working in the community? I hate to say this, but attitudes like this will only make the situation worse. Anybody, anywhere can write an email. You really shouldn't take them to seriously. I am honestly surprised that she let her real email address be publicly available anyway. It's important for communit…

I am apparently not allowed to edit something that has been downvoted but here is my edit: Martin Luther King Jr stood up for his rights and was shot. As we all are, I am very saddened by his loss. However I think that this brings up a very important point. If you stand up for an unpopular belief, you can expect abuse. Should you expect abuse? Should you be forced to endure unpleasantries because you expect the same…

I am apparently not allowed to edit something that has been downvoted

It's because the post is more than 2(?) hours old, not because it was downvoted.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#187

Post by anigbrowl »

maximusprime wrote: post #55
bigB wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that person kept coming back again and again with the same or similar comments, would you see the threat, this is what is happening here if you care to actually read the articles

I do have sympathy, but I think it's pretty sad to call the 'sexist' card when it's clearly just a case of a troll. If you ignore him, he'll move on to someone else soon enough. It looks from the article that he wasn't being ignored at all.

If you ignore him, he'll move on to someone else soon enough.

Citation needed. You are assuming the trolling person is moderately rational and will go somewhere else if his selected target isn't yielding sufficient lulz. Unfortunately, it's all too easy to find stories of irrational people who escalate their harassment under such circumstances. Every few weeks there's a news story about some marginal person who loses the plot and goes on a shooting spree, so the risk of escalation is clearly non-zero.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#188

Post by zasz »

jxcole wrote: post #178
jxcole wrote: post #33

Somebody sends her an email that she doesn't like to her publicly available email address and she decides to quit working in the community? I hate to say this, but attitudes like this will only make the situation worse. Anybody, anywhere can write an email. You really shouldn't take them to seriously. I am honestly surprised that she let her real email address be publicly available anyway. It's important for communit…

I am apparently not allowed to edit something that has been downvoted but here is my edit: Martin Luther King Jr stood up for his rights and was shot. As we all are, I am very saddened by his loss. However I think that this brings up a very important point. If you stand up for an unpopular belief, you can expect abuse. Should you expect abuse? Should you be forced to endure unpleasantries because you expect the same…

Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't alone in his civil rights work. Unfortunately, judging by your commentary, this poor woman is.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#189

Post by flatline »

endtime wrote: post #170
Rariel wrote: post #135

I've worked in IP Law and for the Senate and I've never really experienced overt sexism so I kind of thought it was on the decline in the work place. Imagine my surprise when I started joining tech/start-up communities (like this one) and witnessed unparalleled sexism and ignorance. I mean attitudes that make you think you're in the 1800s (once had somebody on HN tell me that women are genetically less likely to want…

>(once had somebody on HN tell me that women are genetically less likely to want to do tech![!!!!!!!]) Are you trolling? That does not seem to be a sexist or retrograde statement.

I think this highlights the problem nicely: the recipient of the comment took it that way, and you don't seem to understand her response.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#190

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #161
bkrausz wrote: post #153

Last year at FooCamp I went to a panel about women in tech (I believe I was the only guy) for two reasons: 1) I have no qualms about offending people if I feel my point is valid, and in fact enjoy being in situations where I risk such things (I find it incredibly rewarding to have meaningful discussions about things that are considered taboo). 2) To find out what the problem was Let me clarify #2: I didn't see a prob…

I thought the same thing, and argued (I felt persuasively!) on behalf of that perspective for many years. Then I watched my wife Erin, who has as many years of experience in this industry as I do, interview for tech jobs. Please take my word for it that this is not a "few bad apples" problem.

[deleted]
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