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What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

latimes.com

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Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#601

Post by wolverine876 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #271
wolverine876 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% of the problem is caused by someone else Is that true? Or is it true that no factor is more than 10%, so everyone can use this rhetoric and say '90% isn't me!' Also, if you think about it, though it's a very trendy take (which you can see repeated many times on this page) - think past the trend: it's a transparent, embarrassing abdication of responsibility. As just one person, only a tiny amount of the world is…

Dude, you are completely missing the point. Real change should be regulatory, to massive corporations that do by far most damage. Blaming average joe is turning large part of population into fed-up-by-all-this-shit group, I can see it around me quite a bit. Me personally I am still all in, but at this point I am completely fed up with radical and utterly naive folks who blame all general population and push for more…

That's not what the activists are doing at all - especially the idea of ignoring industry (!!) or "blaming" anyone (but the oil industry)!

It's the same old tactic used by reactionaries to polarize and disrupt every other discussion - somehow twist the reactionaries into victims, demonize whoever by just lobbing tons of BS at the wall, and turn it into an impossible emotional discussion. End of discussion!

I don't care what you think about activists; I think that's an intentional distraction - just like the others that have been used for decades to prevent action on climate change. You are doing a great job of it.

You are missing the point, purposely, because now we are talking about your BS (and there is more BS in the comment, but I have better things to do).

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#602

Post by CWuestefeld »

bcbrown wrote: post #346
brewdad wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not seeing the problem. Remove pan from the immersion coil and heat delivery ceases immediately. Adjusting the rate of heat delivery also happens quickly. There may be some cases where you have to alter technique a bit from what you are used to but, aside from wok cooking, I can't think of anything that you can cook over gas that you can't cook on an induction top.

You can't use copper or aluminum pans on induction stoves, so you're not going to be able to have a pan that has both high thermal conductivity and low thermal heat capacity. This is important for cooking things that need to go quickly from high temperature to off, for example hollandaise/bearnaise, caramel, roux. Even deglazing a pan to make a sauce benefits from being able to quickly stop heat transfer before whisk…

I'm not sure why you're limiting the discussion to inductive stoves. Technology Connections showed resistive heating working most efficiently.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#603

Post by cthalupa »

brewdad wrote: post #317
eric-hu wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re off in your analogy. Parent comment is closer to the 0-60 time because of the responsiveness, and you’re referring to time to move a 1000 lbs mass to 60. When I see “responsive” in terms of cooking and gas, I think of wok cooking (mentioned in the article too) where 100k BTUs are needed for a few seconds at a time to combust atomized oil droplets flipped over the edge of the wok. Combusting that oil pr…

Is it even legal to install 100k BTU burner in a residential application? I have a reasonably nice cooktop and the total BTUs of all burners is significantly less than 100k.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are places where it is, but I can't find any limit in my local ordinances. For consumers, you're just not going to get a 100k burner in general - I can find a few prosumer ranges that get up to 35k or so on a single burner, but nothing remotely close to what you would see in a professional Chinese kitchen.

For stir-frying I have a 270k BTU propane burner I use outside. I wouldn't want to dump that much heat into the inside of my house in general, unless it was winter I guess.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#604

Post by cthalupa »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #602
bcbrown wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't use copper or aluminum pans on induction stoves, so you're not going to be able to have a pan that has both high thermal conductivity and low thermal heat capacity. This is important for cooking things that need to go quickly from high temperature to off, for example hollandaise/bearnaise, caramel, roux. Even deglazing a pan to make a sauce benefits from being able to quickly stop heat transfer before whisk…

I'm not sure why you're limiting the discussion to inductive stoves. Technology Connections showed resistive heating working most efficiently.

Resistive burners are efficient (though the induction burner he used was faster), but they are not responsive - the heat built up in them does not dissipate nearly as quickly as when you lower the flame on a gas burner. Induction burners are way better in this regard, but you're limited in the cookware you can use. Even aluminum or copper cookware with steel plates don't solve this, because the steel plate does retain the heat. The combination of having a responsive vessel and a responsive heat source gives you a lot more control than just pulling the pan off the heat source and hoping you can juggle it cooling down vs. getting the temp right on the burner, etc. With copper and gas, it is incredibly easy for me to course correct if I realize I'm off on my temp. Copper losing heat so quickly is the key here.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that you can't create a good sauce or work with a delicate protein using induction burners and stainless steel or similar. It's certainly not a requirement! But copper and gas can make it a lot easier once you learn how to use them.

Serious Eats did a good primer on copper cookware, including some interesting links like the cooking for engineers post -https://www.seriouseats.com/buying-copper-cookware

Alex the French Cooking Guy did a video where he purchased a very high end copper sauce pot, and discusses a bit in it (and the rest of his series on sauces) why he went for copper - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ddRK_jG6E

And then there's the element to some stir fried dishes that simply can't be recreated with inductive or resisitive burners alone. Wok Hei isn't universal in Chinese stir-fry, despite some people acting like you have to incorporate it for every single dish you make in a wok, but it is important for some dishes and some regional cuisines. The science behind what wok hei is enough that there are whole chapters dedicated to it in serious treatises on stir frying like Kenji Alt-Lopez's latest book, but the cliff notes is that a lot of it has to do with flames licking up over the the wok. You can kind of recreate this at home by using a small hand torch, but I've never had as good of results with that as going to my backyard and hooking up my high BTU wok burner.

Which reminds me of a good point - propane and butane are not classified as greenhouse gasses, and are perfectly viable substitutes for cooking with gas. I use butane for my indoor Iwatani burner, and propane for my outdoor burner and pizza oven. For indoor use both have general air quality/pollution issues (though no more than existing gas setups, from my understanding), so they're not a magic bullet. But the vast majority of my cooking happens on my induction burner - I'm not super concerned about the infrequent exposure when I really need to reach for the Iwatani to achieve what I'm after.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#605

Post by cthalupa »

UncleMeat wrote: post #363
jacquesm wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it's not just about energy transfer, it is also about temperature stability, ability to ramp up and down in a short time, ability to deliver that heat gradually. You can't compare an immersion coil with an induction plate or a gas stove directly by only looking at the energy transfer efficiency. There is much more to it than that.

Induction is way faster at changing the temperature of the pan than gas.

This statement has to be qualified when you can't use induction to heat the most thermally responsive metals to begin with. And for a lot of dishes, heating is only half the equation - there are times where you need it to cool just as quickly.

If I'm using my cast iron/carbon steel/stainless pans, yeah, I go for my induction burner 100% of the time. But people use copper and aluminum pans for specific reasons as well - I can make a sauce using my induction burner and a stainless sauce pot if I have to, but it's not nearly as easy for me as doing so with my copper sauce pot and my butane burner.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#606

Post by cthalupa »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #588
wheels wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a stupid trend in electric cooktop design, not something specific to induction. I've got an SMEG induction combo oven/stove and it has real knobs – out front, where they belong. They also make induction cooktops with real knobs.

Know what brand? I'm planning a remodel and I fucking hate this "smart" trend in my home appliances. Luckily at least the dumb stuff is cheaper. Already found a knobby oven but all the induction tops are damned touch screens.

If cost is no concern, the Breville Polyscience Control Freak has a knob and is generally considered the Rolls Royce of induction burners.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#607

Post by subsubzero »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #584
subsubzero wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I don't know if you never got the news or what, but entire forest ranges, bigger than most countries, have dissapeared, like the atlantic forest

I think the question is where are you getting your news? US forests are at a 100 year high, there are more trees now that there were 100 years ago!

https://www.treehugger.com/more-trees-than-there-were-years-...

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#608

Post by wheels »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #588
wheels wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a stupid trend in electric cooktop design, not something specific to induction. I've got an SMEG induction combo oven/stove and it has real knobs – out front, where they belong. They also make induction cooktops with real knobs.

Know what brand? I'm planning a remodel and I fucking hate this "smart" trend in my home appliances. Luckily at least the dumb stuff is cheaper. Already found a knobby oven but all the induction tops are damned touch screens.

I already mentioned the brand: SMEG.

This is what I've got:

https://www.smeg.com/products/C9IMX9-1

This is a cooktop with knobs (they have several more):

https://www.smeg.com/products/SI364BM

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#609

Post by macspoofing »

epistasis wrote: post #289
macspoofing wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it will be replaced with zero carbon generation, including geothermal. No. It will be replaced by gas, because we've pretty much tapped out on sources of geothermal and hydroelectric power, and wind/solar are intermittent. So the only thing that's left is gas or coal. >which will consist both of "regular" lithium storage, and some newer less tested tech for longer duration storage. No. Lithium for long-term grid sc…

Bald assertions do not refute reality. Here is a year old article on the DC replacement package, and there are lots of CPUC PDFs that are more recent and go into more detail: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/california-approv... > we've pretty much tapped out on sources of geothermal No, the technology is changing and there are far far more sites due to enhanced geothermal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enh…

>Here is a year old article on the DC replacement package, and there are lots of CPUC PDFs that are more recent and go into more detail

Uh huh ... you say that, but then there is a Stanford/MIT study from 2021 that called the closing of the plant a terrible idea. This utopian replacement of DC with no-gas sources is just that .. utopian.

>No, the technology is changing and there are far far more sites due to enhanced geothermal

... EGS is a science project with no clear path to commercial viability.

>The GW and GWh of deployed lithium ion batteries seems to disagree with your unsourced version of reality...

No! Who is actually using Lithium ion for grid storage? WHO? Lithium Ion is finding a nice little niche in providing very short term storage to even out spikes in electrical transmission. That's great, but not good enough to make wind/solar viable.

>Before there was a telephone network, did it ever strike anyone that because it didn't exist, it would never be possible?

Uh huh.

>Germany is always brought up as if it is some sort of energy disaster, and even if it were, it would not disprove the ability of renewables to power a grid.

Germany isn't an energy disaster, but it goes to show you that actions speak louder than words. If Germany was confident that they could replace fossil fuels with Wind/Solar/Battery they wouldn't spend billions to build gas pipelines from an authoritarian nation ... for decades to come.

So the question for you is: What do you they know that you don't.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#610

Post by TheSoftwareGuy »

m00x wrote: post #355
TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly we should be banning new gas hookups (as proposed here) and going even further to incentivise removal of existing ones. Climate change is a life or death situation, and we need to be acting way faster. That alone is reason enough. The other reason is that it is better! You can actually get an induction stove to heat up faster than a gas stove, if it is wired properly

Give me the data where it says how much gas stoves contribute to climate change. It's probably so insignificant that it's purely a point for virtue signaling. I've had a gas stove for years and I still haven't needed to refill the tank, and it's not even that big of a tank. Shipping your new induction stove will probably use more gas than you will in a decade of cooking. Induction stoves can't be used for things like…

Here's a paper about how methane leaks from gas stoves contribute to climate change: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c00437 The methane contribution alone is significant. Not to mention the CO2 from actually burning the gas
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