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Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

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Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#151

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #119
andos wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same reasoning, we could argue that thieves and murderers are almost as old as civilization and we should just get used to it. Sorry, but no. They will always exist, sure, but the only thing we should get used to is hunting them fiercely. I will not surrender my right to be happy, productive, and helpful because a minority of socially-dysfunctional people are trying hard to ruin it for me and for others. Nobod…

Would you be OK if people often called you an abuser of women? MikeeUSA is not (as far as we know) an abuser of women. He is a person who sends unpleasant nonthreatening emails while peacefully sitting in his home. Your attempt to conflate people who initiate violence and people who express unpleasant opinions is dishonest. Further, you don't have any "right to be happy". No one does. You have the right to pursue hap…

The problem with your assumption is that (as any abuse counselor will tell you) abusive words are very often the precursor to violent physical action.

As someone whose wife repeatedly received abusive and threatening phone calls and emails from a former co-worker who eventually showed up at her workplace waving a gun (and luckily was restrained by a security guard in the lobby!), I can assure you that Ms Bayley should not take this lightly.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#152

Post by sp332 »

dreww wrote: post #139
davidhansen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the general reason for this attitude goes back to the old phrase "sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never harm me". When someone initiates physical force against you, it is an action being done to you, the consequences of which you cannot avoid due to the laws of physics. We take actual threats of physical violence seriously because of this. When someone says mean things, the above attitude pr…

the daily life of most women is filled with navigating a hostile space that may break out into sexual violence at any time. having an obsessed troll on the internet following you around, or threatening you before you show up to a conference, goes way beyond what you're talking about here. your whole point comes from a place of the privilege of relative security. imagine that is not the case.

the daily life of most women is filled with navigating a hostile space that may break out into sexual violence at any time.

Who are you talking about?

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#153

Post by bkrausz »

Last year at FooCamp I went to a panel about women in tech (I believe I was the only guy) for two reasons:

1) I have no qualms about offending people if I feel my point is valid, and in fact enjoy being in situations where I risk such things (I find it incredibly rewarding to have meaningful discussions about things that are considered taboo).

2) To find out what the problem was

Let me clarify #2: I didn't see a problem within my circles other than the fact that there were few women in startups. I didn't see blatant sexism, I didn't see harassment, I didn't see something that I was comfortable changing to encourage women in my industry. I still occasionally quote South Park or make a dirty joke, but nothing targets women specifically: I just can have a crude sense of humor. Was that what women were concerned about? Were they offended by my jokes, expecting me to be stiff as a board to avoid offending them? In my opinion that's expecting special treatment and is sexism in and of itself.

In my YC class the 4 women were respected and treated like peers. Yes, I'm sure there was some flirting, but I didn't see anything that I wouldn't consider more offensive than I've seen guys do to each other on a regular basis.

What I learned was actually very interesting: from their perspective I was not the problem. Somehow in the middle of the media hype about sexism, I had assumed I must be doing something wrong and was trying to figure out what was inappropriate about my behavior. It turns out there's a whole group of men in tech who are blatantly offensive, harassing, and generally sexist towards women just because they were women. I genuinely think most men are in the better bucket: we aren't offensive, and provide mostly non-hostile work environments. We are not part of the problem. On the other hand, I bet a lot of us aren't part of the solution.

This needs to not be a "men vs women" battle: this needs to be a "people vs jerks" battle. There are a few sour apples poisoning the environment for everyone, and it needs to stop. I do think the only way to fix this is for there to be a social change, but most men just need to change the way they act towards other men. Don't allow it to be ok when one guy crosses the line, and don't just assume HR will take care of it. Call him out on it. I'm confident that that's all 99% of guys need to (and can) do to help with this problem.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#154

Post by itg »

sp332 wrote: post #144
mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

It's because they don't intend to be offensive. For example: in the US, holding up two fingers is cool. In the UK, it's offensive. So one group of people can have a set of behaviors that another group finds offensive, but the first group has no idea why the second group is offended because they don't intend offense. I know there are a lot of actually misogynistic people in tech. I'm only talking about the guys who "d…

If you hold up two fingers in the UK and someone tells you it is offensive, you stop doing it.

Despite the numerous people who try to educate the guys who "don't get it", they continue their immature ways. I'm not going to give them a free pass.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#155

Post by sp332 »

floatboth wrote: post #127
maximusprime wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, if your email address is public, expect copious amounts of spam, abuse, scams, and so on. If you get offended by random emails, don't have a public email address.

My email address is public and I don't get any of these. Maybe just because I'm male?

Maybe it's not just because you're male?

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#156

Post by [deleted] »

itg wrote: post #154
sp332 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they don't intend to be offensive. For example: in the US, holding up two fingers is cool. In the UK, it's offensive. So one group of people can have a set of behaviors that another group finds offensive, but the first group has no idea why the second group is offended because they don't intend offense. I know there are a lot of actually misogynistic people in tech. I'm only talking about the guys who "d…

If you hold up two fingers in the UK and someone tells you it is offensive, you stop doing it. Despite the numerous people who try to educate the guys who "don't get it", they continue their immature ways. I'm not going to give them a free pass.

[deleted]

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#157

Post by antihero »

sp332 wrote: post #144
mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

It's because they don't intend to be offensive. For example: in the US, holding up two fingers is cool. In the UK, it's offensive. So one group of people can have a set of behaviors that another group finds offensive, but the first group has no idea why the second group is offended because they don't intend offense. I know there are a lot of actually misogynistic people in tech. I'm only talking about the guys who "d…

Well perhaps there's some social responsibility and generally being an adult involved in not offending people?

For instance, I'm no huge fan of Islam (or any religion), however, my beef is with the doctrine and the leaders, not the average day to day Muslim, so I'll actively speak out against Islamophobia and try not to offend the average Muslim. It's called actively not being a jerk.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#158

Post by sp332 »

airlocksoftware wrote: post #147
mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

I can barely believe the things I'm reading on this page. Lots of comments similar to "It's just trolling, get over it." And "she's just reinforcing negative stereotypes of women by not being strong enough to handle the internet." And "men deal with negative comments all the time and don't whine about it." These are the exact attitudes that are the problem! Why can they not see this?

When she complains about the trolling, there is nothing we can do about that. It's a completely different mindset to just try to empathize without trying to solve the problem.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#159

Post by [deleted] »

monochromatic wrote: post #93
scott_s wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's her fault that a continued campaign of harassment "bothered" her? Have you ever experienced anything like that, or are you just guessing what it would feel like?

> Have you ever experienced anything like that, or are you just guessing what it would feel like? White-knighting aside, have you ?

[deleted]

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#160

Post by tptacek »

DannoHung wrote: post #132
ugh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t want to live in a society where unnecessary perilous violence is the norm. Is that a good enough reason for you?

So why do you support his right to make threats to undeserving people? Isn't the threat of violence injurious?

This is a stupid debate and it should stop here. Nobody is beating anyone, no matter what the Internet tough guys say.
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