It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal • Hacker News Board

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#41

Post by jack_pp » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:00 AM UTC

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #13

jack_pp wrote: post #2

I've watched a lot of discussions about this from twitch streamers and I'm not sure where I stand.. On the one hand I'm amazed at how good this game looks on mobile and if you're just the type to casually play a game not really caring about being the best at it you could have fun playing it for free or for very cheap. On the other hand this game is clearly exploitative and while other games like Hearthstone or Clash…

I don't buy the "we have ways to play the game without spending lots of money" excuse these companies are constantly peddling. I refuse to accept this new default of "games" explicitly designed to abuse children and addicts.

Children don't have access to a credit card unless you give it to them. If in 2022 you're giving a kid a device where he can make payments without your input then you're responsible for it.

If you're addicted to spending money online irresponsibly I doubt there is any law that will protect you, there's millions of ways to spend money to get gratification online.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#42

Post by gspr » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:02 AM UTC

seydor wrote: post #28

AdvicePlz wrote: post #3

I knew someone who worked for EA as a UX researcher. He said that games like these are primarily targeting whales who will drop $10k on a game. They are the real money earners. The really sad part was the he said the most whales aren't super rich, they're just people with an addiction.

10k over a long period is very small compared to what one can lose in a casino night, and casinos do exist. What kind of game was your friend working on? Whales do exist but they are not the bulk of the revenue

> casinos do exist.

In many jurisdictions they don't. And where they do, they're often very heavily regulated.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#43

Post by mywaifuismeta » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:02 AM UTC

I regularly play games with gambling (gacha) mechanics and I love them. The short bursts of fun are exactly what I'm looking for in my current busy life. I have nothing against this model of monetization. Gambling is fun. Casinos are fun. I am not a big spender by any means, but I've probably spent ~$2k on these kind of games over the past two years or so. I don't regret it, and for me the fun is in figuring out how to maximize the value of my spending by doing the math for different types of purchases, sometimes even coding up simulations.

The problem starts when it's unregulated and you are tricking kids, or people who are not educated about probability, into spending their money in casinos, and use dozens of psychological tricks to do so and obfuscate purchases. Just like it's easy for kids to get addicted to social media like Instagram, it's easy and dangerous to get addicted to gambling (especially when you see your friends or popular streamers doing it). I believe all of these games should be 18+, at the very least, and come with a big warning sign.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#44

Post by vkou » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:02 AM UTC

can16358p wrote: post #38

vhgyu75e6u wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the monetization mechanics in this games rely on predatory practices employed by casinos which we already regulate?

Predatory? Casinos shouldn't be regulated too. If nobody is forcing anyone to attend into something (like going to a casino or playing a pay-to-win game) nobody should have the right to change or regulate the inner dynamics. As long as the game doesn't clearly lie (e.g. telling a lootbox does something that it doesn't) everybody knows what a lootbox is. Playing the game is a voluntary action taken by an individual, j…

> Casinos shouldn't be regulated too. If nobody is forcing anyone to attend into something (like going to a casino or playing a pay-to-win game) nobody should have the right to change or regulate the inner dynamics.

In theory, humans are rational, and in theory, spherical cows are an excellent basis for economics.

Human brains have bugs, and these industries exploit them. It's predatory, and utterly reprehensible.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#45

Post by taurath » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:04 AM UTC

holoduke wrote: post #4

Lootbox games: I don't understand why these kind of games are not getting banned or heavily restricted. There is absolutely not a single positive thing about these games. Moral doesn't matter.

Investors love the monetization model and they get to decide what is just right and moral in our system of economics. The “fiduciary duty” to investors means sociopathy is the only way that businesses are allowed to conduct themselves.

If you can make money, you MUST make it.

Someday I hope we find some way as a society to give value to other things. Its not really working out.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#46

Post by gspr » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:05 AM UTC

seydor wrote: post #29

Why is that considered a lot? People pay more for e.g sports memorabilia

Those sports memorabilia are at least traded on a market, and thus hold and retain that "investment". Not that sports memorabilia make much sense to me either, but at least you get something of proven value.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#47

Post by j_4 » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:06 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #7

AdvicePlz wrote: post #3

I knew someone who worked for EA as a UX researcher. He said that games like these are primarily targeting whales who will drop $10k on a game. They are the real money earners. The really sad part was the he said the most whales aren't super rich, they're just people with an addiction.

I've seen similar comments by several game devs, but at least some of them said that they make most of their money from the kids of the ultra-wealthy. Think of some oil Sheik's son bored to death at home because it's too hot to go outside. But yeah, the "loot boxes" that are mostly gambling have been banned in many countries because they're targeted at young children.

To me this "ultra-wealthy" thing has always sounded like a convenient lie whale-game devs tell themselves to sleep soundly at night. These dark pattern black holes are made purely to form an addiction and turn it into profit, they don't care about who's on the receiving end.

There's an increasing number of players who expect that either a) a game will take unlimited money and feed them dopamines in return, or b) they never have to pay a dime for anything because they're fully subsidized by the addicts. I have conflicted feelings about administrative regulation of this stuff, I just hate that things are this way, especially as an independent game dev.

(I'll do the hustle - my first game Pawnbarian is a chess-flavored puzzle roguelike. On mobile it's an ad-free demo with a single $7 IAP for the whole thing. Out on Steam and Android, iOS will follow soon. j4nw.com/pawnbarian)

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#48

Post by libraryatnight » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:06 AM UTC

can16358p wrote: post #38

vhgyu75e6u wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the monetization mechanics in this games rely on predatory practices employed by casinos which we already regulate?

Predatory? Casinos shouldn't be regulated too. If nobody is forcing anyone to attend into something (like going to a casino or playing a pay-to-win game) nobody should have the right to change or regulate the inner dynamics. As long as the game doesn't clearly lie (e.g. telling a lootbox does something that it doesn't) everybody knows what a lootbox is. Playing the game is a voluntary action taken by an individual, j…

The last person who made this kind of argument to me was a gambling addict who had gotten into day trading.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#49

Post by gspr » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:08 AM UTC

can16358p wrote: post #38

vhgyu75e6u wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the monetization mechanics in this games rely on predatory practices employed by casinos which we already regulate?

Predatory? Casinos shouldn't be regulated too. If nobody is forcing anyone to attend into something (like going to a casino or playing a pay-to-win game) nobody should have the right to change or regulate the inner dynamics. As long as the game doesn't clearly lie (e.g. telling a lootbox does something that it doesn't) everybody knows what a lootbox is. Playing the game is a voluntary action taken by an individual, j…

> Casinos shouldn't be regulated too. If nobody is forcing anyone to attend into something (like going to a casino or playing a pay-to-win game) nobody should have the right to change or regulate the inner dynamics.

This is, of course, a position that is yours to hold. But I do hope that you recognize that it's quite a small, fringe one. It's a bit strange to use a fringe opinion about casino regulation as the stepping stone for an implication that loot boxes shouldn't be regulated.

Re: It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal

#50

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:08 AM UTC

mywaifuismeta wrote: post #43

I regularly play games with gambling (gacha) mechanics and I love them. The short bursts of fun are exactly what I'm looking for in my current busy life. I have nothing against this model of monetization. Gambling is fun. Casinos are fun. I am not a big spender by any means, but I've probably spent ~$2k on these kind of games over the past two years or so. I don't regret it, and for me the fun is in figuring out how…

Heroin is fun too, at least at first.

The problem with gambling is that it taps into the dopamine system in ways that people are not aware of, even if they know about probabilities.

The effect is cumulative, and the more the person gambles, the more they will gamble, take risks, create unbalance and spend money.

Now, just like with anything related to dopamine, many people will only have a mild effect. E.G: I've played dota for a while, and never went into full spending mode.

Like you, I think it's ok to gamble once in a while, to pay for the game. After all, it's fun, and the game provides pleasurable moments, but does cost a lot of resources to develop. It's fair to give money to the company making it: after all, other games may be paid up to $60, DLC not included, while free to play are always up to date.

Yet, it's very difficult to evaluate if the tactics used by the game for gambling are twisted or not, and if the game target is going to be abused or not.

For this reason, I do think they should be heavily regulated, not just about the age, but about the nature, and intensity, or the gambling mechanism in place.