Live data from Hacker News

Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

papers.ssrn.com

41–50 of 269 posts

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#41
> We show that the pandemic has had large effects on both current and expected future cash flows for office buildings.

And this is why loans charge interest, for the "I have no idea what's going to happen but I don't believe you that this enterprise is entirely risk free" sort of reasons. Though I think we've generally managed to decouple the concept of "risk/reward" in loans/investment/etc, in favor of "I'm guaranteed returns, come hell or high water!"

However... on the topic of office space, I can only say, "Well, those chickens sure went home to roost." I can't fault office workers for not wanting to go back to the circle of Hell that a modern "open office" floorplan is. And I don't blame them in the slightest for seeing through the "spraying fountain of crap" that are management's supposed justifications for it. "Serendipitous encounters" happen with offices. But they happen in the places where people go to hang out when they want those encounters, when they want a break from the peace and quiet needed to actually do work. I expect a lot of workers just want to hear management say, once, "You know, it's cheaper to squeeze you in tighter and buy a few more desks than to buy more office space." Though it doesn't explain why the new office space has 500 foot sightlines...

Over the years, I've had almost every office configuration one can have, with the notable exception of a proper cubicle. Frequently, I would have nearly killed someone for a cubicle.

Offices with doors are great, and even if you have to share them with someone, as long as there's good space to work and spread things out, they're wonderful. Door closed, I'm working. Door open, come and chat.

"Team work areas" are fine, if all the people in the room are on the same team. They tend to develop work patterns and cycles, so you know that some hours are light work time with some social interaction, some are heads down hours. Of course, it's amazing just how fast the couches, coffee tables, bookshelves, whiteboards, etc can disappear to cram more people in when the team expands.

And then there's the open office hell that is just horrible for the exact sort of work that tech types are paid good money to be good at - what Cal Newport calls "Deep Work." The sort of stuff where, done right, you can disappear into a problem for 6 hours, and come up with something good. The open office reality is more, "If you can get half an hour of actual concentration, with something loud screaming in your headphones, you're having a good day."

And I've been able to compare the two states, because my current office (full time remote) is the "Solar Shed" - an 8x12 Tuff-Shed that's entirely off grid, and entirely my own workspace. I now can, and do, manage the "My wife has to ping me for dinner because I've lost all track of time with some problem" days. I came to it from open office, and the contrast couldn't be more extreme.

So, yeah. If office spaces were good places to get work done, I expect a lot more people would be interested in going back. But they're not. And even a poor quality WFH space is often better than "always loud, always people talking, can't get an hour of good concentration in" open office hell. A good WFH space? Nobody has offices like that anymore.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether value was 'destroyed' or not depends on how you look at it. $500 billion dollars worth of assets were lost by the owners of the real estate; that value is gone, and it didn't go to someone else. It just vanished. The value didn't disappear because it transferred to someone else, it went away because the asset itself become less desirable and valuable to other people. You can imagine it being like if a farmer…

So good riddance? Do you really think someone who was able to buy real estate in Manhattan needs a handout? Also the money didn’t disappear, it went to people smarter or luckier than them who used to own the place before. Money doesn’t disappear.

That's not how market devaluation works. The "money" (paper money value) definitely was disappeared. It doesn't flow to someone else. Markets don't work like that.

If I buy something for $100, the market value increases to $150 and then drops to $50, I've still lost $100 from the peak on paper. It didn't go to someone else.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether value was 'destroyed' or not depends on how you look at it. $500 billion dollars worth of assets were lost by the owners of the real estate; that value is gone, and it didn't go to someone else. It just vanished. The value didn't disappear because it transferred to someone else, it went away because the asset itself become less desirable and valuable to other people. You can imagine it being like if a farmer…

Lower rents or building values means businesses leasing/purchasing those buildings have more money to invest elsewhere. It could be argued that the capital will be used to drive a real ROI… something that rent does not provide.

That's in the long run though. The "destroyed value" was an evaluation based on future rental income. In a way the valuation puts a price tag on the assumed future return on purchasing the property. Someone else is now not paying that rent, but they didn't get a lump sum transfer of that valuation in cash.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If NYC office space in a high rise, it cannot just be repurposed for something else.

It could be used for residential, childcare, go karts (electric … I have done this on the converted 4th floor of a car park), wework style thing, storage/warehousing, restaurant, ghost kitchens, lightweight manufacturing. Lots of potential uses. Shelter for homeless would be my favourite if it can be funded.

Unfortunately New York’s zoning laws forbid what you’re suggesting. The new mayor is attempting to change them (though is facing resistance from the city council).

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If NYC office space in a high rise, it cannot just be repurposed for something else.

Of course it can. What makes you think that it couldn't be remodeledd into living spaces? Buildings in a town flip all the time from residential=>commercial=>residential.

New York’s zoning laws.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So good riddance? Do you really think someone who was able to buy real estate in Manhattan needs a handout? Also the money didn’t disappear, it went to people smarter or luckier than them who used to own the place before. Money doesn’t disappear.

That's not how market devaluation works. The "money" (paper money value) definitely was disappeared. It doesn't flow to someone else. Markets don't work like that. If I buy something for $100, the market value increases to $150 and then drops to $50, I've still lost $100 from the peak on paper. It didn't go to someone else.

The folks holding those assets didn’t have the money either though, until it was time to sell and they sold.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#47
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it can. What makes you think that it couldn't be remodeledd into living spaces? Buildings in a town flip all the time from residential=>commercial=>residential.

New York’s zoning laws.

Any developer worth their salt can have that corrected. Everyone in NY walks around with someone else's hand in their pockets.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#48

I’m a believer in reversion to the mean, and I think that’s what we will see with the office market and work from home. The technology to work from home existed before the pandemic. Why didn’t it take off before the pandemic if it works so well? We didn’t suddenly discover a new technology here. The use of that technology was precipitated by a transient force, and when that force is removed completely, things will re…

respectfully disagree. knowledge, just like innovation cannot be reverted. it hadn't taken off before the pandemic since we were living under a purposefully driven illusion of the necessity of office work.

just like food delivery, employers, just like workers now have the knowledge that wfh works. thus workers will always have the leverage of having competitive companies that know it does offering it.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#49

From the abstract, “We revalue the stock of New York City commercial office buildings taking into account pandemic-induced cash flow and discount rate effects. We find a 32% decline in office values in 2020 and 28% in the longer-run, the latter representing a $500 billion value destruction.” Is that value “destroyed”? Is it not unlocked to flow elsewhere? I’m genuinely curious about the dynamics of this.

Yes value was destroyed by these deals/builds not properly accounting for risk of a shift to WFH. Basically all the companies involved lit money on fire to the tune of $500b. Other areas benefited but this was pure vaporization of money.

Re: Work from home and the office real estate apocalypse

#50

I'm curious to see how this plays out in the long term since data they're using is from 2020. In late 2020 I remember reading tons of articles about how people were fleeing the city causing apartment rental prices to plummet. Now, two years later, most of my friends who rent are paying as much as, if not more than they were paying pre-covid and the apartment buildings I can see into look as full as they ever were (an…

Rent is way up in Brooklyn as of late 2021. I decided to leave nyc because renewing my lease came with a significant rent hike to the “pandemic deal” I got.

Commercial-wise, I can’t see it recovering to pre-pandemic levels. I’m not seeking an office out and I know many friends / former coworkers that are happy not in an office

Post reply on HN