Norway to track all supermarket purchases? • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#461

Post by jonahbenton » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 3:20 AM UTC

dane-pgp wrote: post #455

jonahbenton wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just can't with the aphorisms. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. So there. Make an actual argument.

I'm sorry you don't like my simple-to-follow chain of aphorisms. My actual argument is expressed in more detail elsewhere on this page, specifically here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31622654

I responded. It's not an argument. Specific goods- and there are all sorts of specific goods that can come out of this collection- have to met with specific bads- and there are all sorts of these as well- and considered in the context of actual history and trajectory, not fanciful imaginings.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#462

Post by missedthecue » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 3:41 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #420

missedthecue wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Securitas is contracted by the state to run background checks and do other paper-pushing activities. They do not kill people under their own prerogative.

Nope, that is absolutely false. They fulfill police duties in Sweden. Prior to that they were ubiquitous security guards and engaged in violence daily.

Even as police/security, they are not permitted to go out and kill people. They can act in a lethal manner if their life is in immediete danger, just like you or I can as normal citizens. That is not unique. The CEO of Securitas cannot decide to kill you and have his henchmen go do it.

The leaders of governments can and do act like that.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#463

Post by stjohnswarts » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 4:12 AM UTC

I hope the people in Norway are smart enough to fight this tooth and nail. This is how everything you purchase or ever will purchase will be scrutinized by bureaucrats to be used against you. Sure the initial version might be anonymized but you can be sure some government official will say "well we have the data anyway and they don't seem to really care..."

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#464

Post by stjohnswarts » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 4:13 AM UTC

jvm___ wrote: post #90

giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

You're already being tracked by the grocery stores, wouldn't it be better to be tracked by someone who at least tries to have your best interests at heart vs. the grocery industry who just wants to sell you more?

The grocery industry can't put you in jail or kick your door in.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#465

Post by staticautomatic » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 4:33 AM UTC

wiz21c wrote: post #259

ceejayoz wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep; societally, they've got a very different attitude towards privacy. Everyone's salary is publicly available online. (So's the fact that you looked!) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239

As said in the article, we already share our data with the supermarket, google, etc and whatever other systems that binds all of them together. In that situation, I'm happy that government has access to the same data because it gives it a way to balance the private sector power. Now what is needed is the ability to opt out.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say “happy that a government you trust has access”

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#466

Post by einherjae » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 5:58 AM UTC

mdp2021 wrote: post #362

einherjae wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is available, but very very rare these days. Enough so that using it is an outlier for most people Debit, or mobile payments are the norm, to the point that even kids having a cookie stand will expect mobile payment.

> an outlier Within a Paretian framework, anything good is an outlier. What you need is a system that allows the minoritarian good to be preserved. So, within your sentences: "using it is an outlier for most people below 60 and for privacy conscious individuals ".

Well, problem is that being an outlier isn’t necessarily good for privacy reasons. With a tad more paranoia, why couldn’t stores flag any cash transaction, and combine it with stuff like the current list of parked cars (generally parking is handled by number plate readers), or even something like surveillance cameras?

Blending in is generally what a privacy minded individual wants for their data.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#467

Post by wiz21c » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 7:47 AM UTC

jltsiren wrote: post #421

WanderPanda wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow people really forgot that privacy is all about privacy with respect to the government because they are the ones with the monopoly on violence. It is tragic that people think private firms could ever be as evil as governments

That attitude makes sense if you come from a low-trust society where the state apparatus thinks it's running an empire. Especially if the country is large and actively trying to reshape the world. Things look different in a small high-trust country with multiple political parties. Because the country is too weak and insignificant to change the world, the government tends to focus on administering the country. Because…

That's really weird, you just described what I think in terms that are very accurate. Are you me ?

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#468

Post by mdp2021 » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 8:32 AM UTC

einherjae wrote: post #466

mdp2021 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an outlier Within a Paretian framework, anything good is an outlier. What you need is a system that allows the minoritarian good to be preserved. So, within your sentences: "using it is an outlier for most people below 60 and for privacy conscious individuals ".

Well, problem is that being an outlier isn’t necessarily good for privacy reasons. With a tad more paranoia, why couldn’t stores flag any cash transaction, and combine it with stuff like the current list of parked cars (generally parking is handled by number plate readers), or even something like surveillance cameras? Blending in is generally what a privacy minded individual wants for their data.

> Blending in is generally what a privacy minded individual wants

"Blending in" is very different from "giving away one's data" - which defies the purpose. You are confusing the two situations, of a dissident trying to conceal his position to survive, and of a normal individual that lives by the natural stance, "a citizen and a free man, never a subject".

The one intending to survive will act "in the shadow"; the one intending to defend his own Dignity will be very open in the stance "do not even try".

> With a tad more paranoia, why couldn’t ... surveillance cameras

Of course they could, and they would have to bear the consequences of facing determined lucid bersekers if they did.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#469

Post by mdp2021 » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:02 AM UTC

gryte wrote: post #438

mdp2021 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As said in the article, we already share The article says that a number of people uses «loyalty programs». It mentions tracking though «debit card», and last time I checked Norwegians still have circulating cash. It does not mention Google, but surely there will be Norwegians that do not share data with it. Let us highlight that surely, some do not share at all. I do not understand, contextually, the idea of «balan…

Circulation of cash is very low, only 3% of trensfered money is in cash according to this 2019 study https://www.norges-bank.no/en/news-events/news-publications/... Since then, with COVID where many stores refused cash payments, so it may have decreased further.

The 3% value (if I am reading data correctly) is because of the pandemic - the usual recent value would have been closer to (rounded) 10%, which received a blow in the 2020 frenzy; the "2019" study covers complete 2019 but includes 2020 data.

May I interest you in a past submission, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31360319 , "Study finds the SARS-CoV-2 virus is not viable on cash banknotes".

About the special numbers of Sweden and Norway: this is what happens when living in Sweden and Norway, you get the false idea that reality is like Sweden and Norway look.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#470

Post by mdp2021 » Sun, Jun 05, 2022, 9:25 AM UTC

ako wrote: post #405

WanderPanda wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow people really forgot that privacy is all about privacy with respect to the government because they are the ones with the monopoly on violence. It is tragic that people think private firms could ever be as evil as governments

If you consider all the school shootings in the US the claim that government has a monopoly on violence is nonsense. There’s plenty of non governmental violence.

"Monopoly" in this context is an elision of "[legal] monopoly": it means that legislation excludes other parties from entitlement to something. It is said that in (typical) societies some law enforcement branches are given "monopoly of violence" (and again, "violence" as /fair/ coercion) - nobody else is in general entitled to exercising "violence" (a random citizen cannot deprive another of freedom, but the law enforcement, under fitting circumstances, can).