Norway to track all supermarket purchases? • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#321

Post by hhjinks » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:27 PM UTC

burnished wrote: post #308

hhjinks wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to live in the woods if you don't like the deal. You don't get to use any of society's infrastructure if you don't opt in, though. You won't be taxed, of course, since you can't engage with any economic activity within society. I'm sure you could make a nice commune in the wilderness somewhere. Just don't bring anything from society with you, like tools, clothes, food, livestock, seeds. Good luck out ther…

You, uh, sorta can't. There is no unowned land left. You can squat but that is living as an outlaw. Also >You don't get to use any of society's infrastructure if you don't opt in, though. You don't represent the rest of us, so why are you pretending to the authority to make stipulations like this? I'd imagine if there were any outlands left to retreat to, you would at least have some bartering going on there at the f…

I'm not pretending to be an authority on anything, or representing anyone but myself. You can't just pick and choose which parts of society you want to comply with. If you do, you get incarcerated. As a direct consequence, interfacing with society's infrastructure is a soft opt-in, which will result in your incarceration if you don't live within the bounds of that society. So it's not a stipulation, nor do I require any authority, nor do I need to speek for anyone, when saying it, since it's a necessary component of the theoretical.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#322

Post by hhjinks » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #317

hhjinks wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to live in the woods if you don't like the deal. You don't get to use any of society's infrastructure if you don't opt in, though. You won't be taxed, of course, since you can't engage with any economic activity within society. I'm sure you could make a nice commune in the wilderness somewhere. Just don't bring anything from society with you, like tools, clothes, food, livestock, seeds. Good luck out ther…

Where can this be done legally in the US?

Why would someone who rejects society care about society's laws?

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#323

Post by cgriswald » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:30 PM UTC

WanderPanda wrote: post #293

wiz21c wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As said in the article, we already share our data with the supermarket, google, etc and whatever other systems that binds all of them together. In that situation, I'm happy that government has access to the same data because it gives it a way to balance the private sector power. Now what is needed is the ability to opt out.

Wow people really forgot that privacy is all about privacy with respect to the government because they are the ones with the monopoly on violence. It is tragic that people think private firms could ever be as evil as governments

The government only has a monopoly on legal violence, but violence is beside the point. (And never mind that a bad government could simply steal the data or compel a corporation to hand it over.)

Imagine living in a state where abortion laws now allow individuals to sue other individuals who have had abortions. A corporation could use grocery data to find and sue individuals who are likely to have had an abortion. The analysis would be a bit more complex than this, but just looking at grocery data, scan for people who bought pregnancy tests, bought fewer tampons than usual, and aren't buying baby food a year later. No violence, totally legal, and absolutely devastating to the individuals involved.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#324

Post by paganel » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:30 PM UTC

Fuck it, not even Ceausescu was doing this (or something similar to this) in communist Romania, and I grew up under Ceausescu as a kid, I should know. The worst that was happening from this point of view was maybe an older neighbor lady stopping you on your way back from the grocery store and literally going through your purchases (yes, kids were sent to the grocery store to do small purchases), but nothing more than that (and, even then, we, as kids, knew that what those old ladies were doing was wrong)

Which begs the question: how come today’s Norwegians are ok with this? How is this normal in a liberal democracy? Is this what modern liberal democracy was all along? I.e. a dystopian State infringing more and more on one’s basic liberties, all in the name of the “greater good”? That’s nuts.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#325

Post by lambdaba » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:30 PM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #292

lambdaba wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. I'm on an all-meat diet and I turned my health around thanks to it. Most often people who advocate eliminating meat look sickly, because they are.

I'm all for meat, fish and vegetables. That's the healthiest slice of the available foods. Any reason you've cut out vegetables entirely? I'd consider eating lots of green veg, while avoiding the starchy ones. My entrance point was AIP which basically forces one to do this.

I think it has to do with gut biome somehow. I've seen excellent biome diversity scores from other people on the diet, but in my case it's from repeated experience with gradually eating more and more fruit (and nothing else), not necessarily large quantities even (though I did ocassionaly eat quite a lot apples).

I haven't really tried with vegetables (not interested taste-wise), so it might be the carbs / fruit sugars that weren't great for my gut biome, which I suspect is messed up as it is for many people nowadays.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#326

Post by iggldiggl » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:30 PM UTC

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #270

HWR_14 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suppose you be could be charged more for purchasing a certain item at that particular chain. I highly doubt this has ever happened, since it's bad for business. I'm sure it has, it's just done in a subtle manner you don't notice. > What is the worst realistic consequence for a government...tracking all grocery purchases? As many other posters have noted, it's reasonable to imagine a progressive sin tax: That was…

>I'm sure it has, it's just done in a subtle manner you don't notice. How do you figure? In all grocery stores I’ve visited, loyalty card discounts are clearly noted on the item's price tag. I've never seen any hidden discounts (or surcharges) that pop up only at checkout. >Just swipe your "tax setting" card before you swipe anything else. Very true, but decentralizing progressive sales tax collection is rife for fra…

> otherwise, just ring up your massive meat order one steak at a time

David Foster Wallace's unfinished novel "The Pale King" (which is set within the context of an Internal Revenue Service Regional Examination Centre and the people working there) contains something like that – at some point a supposed 1977 progressive sales tax experiment in Illinois is mentioned, which of course went horribly wrong and caused lots of chaos because people began splitting up their purchases in order to stay within the lowest tax band, and so it had to be repealed again after four months.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#327

Post by _-david-_ » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:32 PM UTC

jonahbenton wrote: post #142

hammock wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grocery stores who track me are subject to the pressures of competitive enterprise. The government is not. And that's to say nothing of the fact that, at least in the US, about 50% of the entire population at any given time tend NOT to believe that the government has their best interest in mind

Quoted post unavailable.

You can shop at small mom and pop shops.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#328

Post by paganel » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:32 PM UTC

jvm___ wrote: post #90

giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

You're already being tracked by the grocery stores, wouldn't it be better to be tracked by someone who at least tries to have your best interests at heart vs. the grocery industry who just wants to sell you more?

The grocery store can’t send me to prison nor can it order a judge to block my bank accounts based on my political believes and actions.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#329

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:36 PM UTC

WanderPanda wrote: post #293

wiz21c wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As said in the article, we already share our data with the supermarket, google, etc and whatever other systems that binds all of them together. In that situation, I'm happy that government has access to the same data because it gives it a way to balance the private sector power. Now what is needed is the ability to opt out.

Wow people really forgot that privacy is all about privacy with respect to the government because they are the ones with the monopoly on violence. It is tragic that people think private firms could ever be as evil as governments

[deleted]

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#330

Post by Dracophoenix » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

runnerup wrote: post #175

verisimi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you agreed to be managed by the government right? Remember when they came round and you signed the contract? To pay 40%+ in taxes? For the ability to vote once every 4-5 years for someone to represent you? You don't? Nor me. Governments presume to have authority over everything in their domain. The belief in the false idea of 'government' by the majority is what sustains their power. It is actually immoral and fr…

Quoted post unavailable.

> But you don't get to live near society and not "opt in" to our laws. You can protest the laws, you can choose to break the laws (and face any consequences). But you can't just pretend that anarchy should be the default status until you sign some imagined physical contract.

Prohibition was defeated because people broke the laws curtailing their individual freedom to drink alcohol. Individuals have been smoking marijuana despite a federal and state bans on it with the latter being being lifted recently but speedily. The abortion issue, at this moment, concerns the right of one to opt out of laws that curtail bodily independence.

The social contract is fiction. Every freedom that has ever been sought or protected starts with the individual spiting the mandates of society while circumventing or blunting its punishments. That's not anarchy but a foundational cornerstone of liberty.