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Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

tedgioia.substack.com

191–198 of 198 posts

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Noone said that the anti-imaging filter was literally built into the DAC package. 2. The analog reconstruction filter doesn’t need ideal stopband rejection. An oversampling DAC [0] pushes the image frequencies far beyond the passband, so a gentle analog filter is sufficient to suppress it to the noise floor. 3. Noone said anything about mathematically perfect reproduction. Of course there is quantization noise. Of…

You: "Noone said anything about mathematically perfect reproduction." Also you: "thereby getting back the original smooth waveform". I don't think you're using the word "original" correctly. And now we agree - the reproduction is not perfect. That is exactly what I wrote to begin with. >Noone said that the anti-imaging filter was literally built into the DAC package. That's right - I did not write that, so don't impl…

Ok, very cool, but please get back to the original argument about analog vs digital audio.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#192

This is a much observed secular trend as Ted Gioia points out, tech platforms are disintermediators, Ben Thompson has been writing about it for ages. Platforms give creators the possibility to directly interact with consumers and it's the traditional distributors who are getting canned. In some cases this has arguably significant downsides, say in the news industry where traditional outlets have many social functions…

> give creators the possibility to directly interact with consumers and it's the traditional distributors who are getting canned If this is true, why are the distributors making bank while the (median) creators are barely scraping by? Your ideal doesn’t match reality.

My guess is that this has to do with volume. If you are a platform and you take a piece of every single artist's income then you're going to make a lot more money than the individual artists.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#193
post #59

Interestingly, labels playing games about releasing albums is an old trick for various old reasons too. https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2010/apr/15/arti... https://www.buzzfeed.com/azafar/what-happens-when-your-favor... for a couple old references A change in negotiation power seems like a good evolution of the industry for anyone but record industry execs. But this "record industry is committing suicide"…

It's not committing suicide - it's just fighting over the rights to the tide pool where the water receded entirely unaware of the tsunami barreling towards them. When the software world can convincingly create new songs that sound like the hit songs people like, but sufficiently different to dodge copyright law, then it's game over. We don't blink an eye at efforts to do things like complete one of Beethoven's sympho…

What worries me is that the copyright industry, being wealthy and politically connected, is not going to go down without a fight.

I'd imagine trying to ever-broaden the concept of "derivative works", so your "completely new that sounds like Bowie" falls within their catchment.

Or aggressive license mandates on the data set used to train your ML model, so you aren't legally allowed to use it to produce competitive products in the first place. (In that scenario, I can imagine a run on used-CD stores as people rush to get unencumbered source material for that purpose).

On the other hand, it definitely feels like chasing local maxima. Yeah, they can try to fence in "the best song David Bowie never wrote", but that will just drive experimentation to unowned corners of the market. The AI-driven music industry might be a pivot on the scale of going from, say, Mozart to EDM in a matter of years.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#194
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You: "Noone said anything about mathematically perfect reproduction." Also you: "thereby getting back the original smooth waveform". I don't think you're using the word "original" correctly. And now we agree - the reproduction is not perfect. That is exactly what I wrote to begin with. >Noone said that the anti-imaging filter was literally built into the DAC package. That's right - I did not write that, so don't impl…

> There is no inherent noise floor for either system. This is silly. Every system has a current noise floor based on whatever the thermodynamics of the system are. If you can push the artifacts of your output below that then they will be indistinguishable from the noise. That’s the point.

>This is silly. Every system has a current noise floor based on whatever the thermodynamics of the system are.

Each fixed system has a noise floor, but there is no noise floor forced on all systems. You can design a system to have as low of a noise floor as you desire, digital or analog. Physics experiments routinely do it to detect extremely rare events.

As to thermo, it's almost like you ignored that I already wrote this, which I repeat: "both can be run easily down to thermal background radiation noise floor, then both need things like liquid cooling and other techniques if you want to go below". In common audio, thermal noise is often the biggest component of the noise floor in a system.

Hence the point to cool them. There is no floor except zero if you want to engineer such a system. And it works for analog and digital.

>If you can push the artifacts of your output below that then they will be indistinguishable from the noise.

Nope, you can signal below the noise floor using many techniques, such as spread spectrum techniques. This is used routinely for military and other covert operations. As usual, this is even Wikipedia level knowledge: "Signals that are below the noise floor can be detected by using different techniques of spread spectrum communications, where signal of a particular information bandwidth is deliberately spread in the frequency domain resulting in a signal with a wider occupied bandwidth." [1]

Heck, even everyday GPS signals are vastly below the noise floor, yet we use those signals all the time with cheap hardware. "The strength of received GPS signal transmitted from a satellite to the ground users is about −157 dBm below the noise floor of −138.5 dBm" [2]. This is all common knowledge among people doing even basic signal processing. Tons of everyday tech signals below their respective noise floors. It's not a rare thing to do.

You make many claims that are not true.

So, as to your claim that "the noise floor of a digital system is still way lower than what’s achievable with an analog one" - have a citation in a paper stating this? Have a theorem in a textbook? I'd like to see why you make this claim.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_floor

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3292143/

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#195
Why do we need record labels today, exactly? We don't have to spend tons of money on recording studios and equipment, on producing master record, on replication, logistic from factories to music shops. Music is just to be recorded on $100 mic, mixed on $1000 laptop and uploaded to several streaming services, that's all.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#196
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no inherent noise floor for either system. This is silly. Every system has a current noise floor based on whatever the thermodynamics of the system are. If you can push the artifacts of your output below that then they will be indistinguishable from the noise. That’s the point.

>This is silly. Every system has a current noise floor based on whatever the thermodynamics of the system are. Each fixed system has a noise floor, but there is no noise floor forced on all systems. You can design a system to have as low of a noise floor as you desire, digital or analog. Physics experiments routinely do it to detect extremely rare events. As to thermo, it's almost like you ignored that I already wrot…

You are very insistent on proving yourself right by changing the topic to one where your assertions are correct instead of dealing with the discussion that everyone else was having. It’s a neat rhetorical trick, but kind of annoying in a context where everyone else is just trying to have a constructive discussion.

In this context, we were talking about digital audio & the perception thereof by human listeners. Spread spectrum signal processing techniques are not relevant. Driving the noise floor down to the quantum limit by using liquid helium & a bunch of other abstruse techniques is not relevant. The fact that GPS signals are below the noise floor in their radio spectrum is, once again, not relevant.

Do you argue like this in all your interactions with other people?

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That definition is so broad as to include almost all modern western music. Such a loose definition doesn't serve much a purpose as a genre.

Define rock

Roots in blues, and its composition is based on blues paradigms like the pentatonic scale and writing structure, 4/4 or 3/4 time signature. Instrumentation has but is not limited to, at least one electric guitar, bass, drum kit and a vocalist. Song structure will usually adhere to a verse chorus verse chorus bridge trope.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#198
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is silly. Every system has a current noise floor based on whatever the thermodynamics of the system are. Each fixed system has a noise floor, but there is no noise floor forced on all systems. You can design a system to have as low of a noise floor as you desire, digital or analog. Physics experiments routinely do it to detect extremely rare events. As to thermo, it's almost like you ignored that I already wrot…

You are very insistent on proving yourself right by changing the topic to one where your assertions are correct instead of dealing with the discussion that everyone else was having. It’s a neat rhetorical trick, but kind of annoying in a context where everyone else is just trying to have a constructive discussion. In this context, we were talking about digital audio & the perception thereof by human listeners. Spread…

>we were talking about digital audio & the perception thereof by human listeners

Actually, this thread was on sampling theory and whether or not Nyquist perfectly recreated original signals. The only mention of anything about human perception in the chain you're replying to is me writing that good engineering can push errors outside human hearing, while pointing out that it is not the original signal. All the other posts in the thread you claim is about human perception are not about human perception. They're about signal reconstruction with one mention of how that applies to hearing.

>Do you argue like this in all your interactions with other people?

No, most of my friends don't make incorrect claims then double down on them when better information is pointed out. They also don't tend to claim an entire conversation is about a different topic than it was.

You: "Up to the Nyquist limit, a digital signal will completely recreate the original signal". No, as explained.

You: "Digitisation does not result in square wave output anywhere in the output chain" - again false, even for audio, as explained above. Thinking that output is a nice set of pure sine waves making the original band limited (which is also an approximation) leads people to flawed thinking. Realizing the how and why of what actually comes out is useful.

You imply pushing things below a noise floor makes them indistinguishable from noise - this isn't true in general, and is not even true in audio. There are even audio products that use signaling below the noise floor. Repeated misunderstanding of what a noise floor is (and isn't) is extremely useful, even in audio. The other examples were to make it clear there is useful knowledge here.

Understanding these nuances is useful for even audio to understand that reconstruction is always a design tradeoff on where you want to put the errors - and that you never are reconstructing the original signal.

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