What a gas stove ban means for restaurants • Hacker News Board

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#561

Post by freemint » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

83afnpg wrote: post #471

ricardobeat wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction burners are extremely efficient (>80%) vs something like 40% for gas burners, so the induction would come ahead in your example (1400W vs 1100W). The cooktops you can buy here in Europe are limited to 3.7kW, and you can bridge two burners for up to 7.4kW. I rarely use one burner beyond ~70% power, anything above gets scorching hot (= burns everything) when using a good iron/steel pan. I heard the US has the…

They might be 80% efficient, but I think around 40% of California electricity comes from natural gas. It’s kind of silly to convert from gas to electricity to heat in terms of efficiency.

Natural Gas to electric energy conversion happens at a higher efficiency. Millions are invested to ensure that.

In addition every gas to heat thing can't be decarbonised (electricity to gas won't work at this scale and would be hugely inefficient) to negative emissions.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#562

Post by freemint » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 1:22 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #519

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #275

A large reason electric (restive and induction) are seen as inferior to gas is that portable units are limited to 120v/15a (few are 20a) so the total possible power is technically less than a gas stove; 2800w effective. However, gas stoves are very inefficient so in reality it's not a huge problem and 240v electric stoves could even be hotter (~4000w) than a gas stove. > Xie estimates that he pays around $500 to $700…

They're negating most of Asian cooking by taking away gas. This is stupid and overdoing it imho. It should be done with an adjustment period over 5 years or more. I'm all electric at home but using a wok on an induction stove is a pita and doesn't even resemble a wok. I have friends who cook as a hobby and swear by gas. Korean BBQ could be probably done on electric as well. Takes more time though. If I'd open a KBBQ…

Hydrogen is actually worse for the climate then natural gas right now. It is harder to transport is made from natural gas anyway. Key word: Steam Reforming

Electricity to Hydrogen has much more energy waste even in a carbon neutral world.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#563

Post by hammock » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

marvin wrote: post #556

Gibbon1 wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the standard neoliberal solution that never works vs California's experience that phase outs and bans work well.

It currently costs $600 to permanently remove one ton of CO2 from the atmosphere. How many percent of the United States' CO2 emissions are subjected to this level of CO2 tax, along with similar import taxes to avoid shifting emissions to locales with no tax? This will work.

Using $600 per ton of co2 across a 2000mi commercial flight with 150 passengers emitting 50lbs of co2 per mile, that works out to a tax of $200 per passenger (each way). Would double the price of a typical ticket

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#564

Post by hammock » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

turtledove wrote: post #535

hammock wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if someone told you you had to marry someone other than your wife, because your wife’s genes are more likely to produce disabled offspring that would place a great burden on the social safety net.

Ok, I'm imagining it. Now what? Oh wait, were you trying to say that forced divorce and remarriage is the same thing as "this other type of cooking tool should be used instead of the one you are familiar with"? Hahahaha

Yeah I’m not sure. Maybe it’s better if someone with more empathy imagines it

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#565

Post by marvin » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #563

marvin wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It currently costs $600 to permanently remove one ton of CO2 from the atmosphere. How many percent of the United States' CO2 emissions are subjected to this level of CO2 tax, along with similar import taxes to avoid shifting emissions to locales with no tax? This will work.

Using $600 per ton of co2 across a 2000mi commercial flight with 150 passengers emitting 50lbs of co2 per mile, that works out to a tax of $200 per passenger (each way). Would double the price of a typical ticket

Yep.

It's pretty obvious that we need to work very hard at getting this cost down.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#566

Post by kalleboo » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 1:54 PM UTC

tompccs wrote: post #411

occz wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that this is relevant at all in the context of this discussion - electric cooking methods - particularly induction - are superior to gas in essentially every way, shape or form - barring the production of wok hei, which is why the article stresses that so much, while conveniently leaving out all the massive downsides of gas stoves. Gas stoves are also generally used by gas companies to get gas lines dra…

Everything you have written is wrong. Gas is very efficient. If you have the choice of burning gas at a power station (which is how a lot of electricity is generated now a days) and piping it directly into people's homes for the end goal of generating heat, piping wins every time. The inefficiencies of converting gas to electricity and transporting that electricity are significant and well known. Additionally, I don'…

> Heat pumps are also a vastly overrated technology which only work for very well insulated houses with an HVAC system which keeps the rooms ventilated artificially

I live in a Japanese apartment (=absolutely terribly insulated, single pane glass, drafty as hell) and our minisplits work way better than any resistive heating we've tried. The only other heaters we use are radiant heaters to heat your body quickly if you don't need to heat the rest of the room.

I don't see how "method that heats air using less energy" can be worse than "method that heard air using more energy". Both are just heating air.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#567

Post by ajsnigrutin » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #423

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://old.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/dbabxu/til_tha ... combine this ^ with: https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2016/12/05/tale-fish-two-cou ... > An example of this would be when a wild cod is caught off the coast of Alaska and, due to economic factors, is shipped to another country to be fabricated into fillets and packaged. If this process of turning a whole fish into packaged fillets occurs in China, the co…

>Yes, the fishing industry is to blame for shipping caught fish from USA to china and back, and the whole thing is very absurd. I don't see how it's any more absurd than manufacturing iPhones in China only to have it shipped half way across the world to the American consumer.

There's a difference between being manufactured in china, and being manufactured in usa, sent to china, where they pack them in a box, and sent back to USA

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#568

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:23 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #513

s1artibartfast wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, 0%. They have _NO_ vote on how industry does what it does. Industry is not a democracy. They cannot just not buy food and electricity. That's stupid. They have to buy the things they can afford. The working class doesn't just have extra cash laying around, they buy what they can afford.. There are options to buy low carbon, and nobody does. People can vote with their wallets or they can vote at the ballot box. T…

> I think you are in error if you think that somehow making the change with regulations means the cost wont be passed to consumers. That's a misconception spread by the anti-tax crowd. The seller can take the increased cost out of their own profits or they can try to pass it along as an increased the price, but they can't just demand that people buy their product at the higher price. First, in this respect, there is…

I agree that that phenomenon happens, but think it's the exception and not the rule. This is especially the case in energy markets which often have legally fixed profit margins. If you take something like electricity in California, profits are legally fixed and cost well assuredly be passed to the customer. It's also true in highly competitive markets like Airlines, the example I used earlier, where profit margins are low.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#569

Post by jolux » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

marak830 wrote: post #541

syntheweave wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if the market is unready to provide something professionals are happy with, and that could be a disaster - but if it's mandated throughout the state, the demand will exist for a supplier to try to do better. I can say that for my own home cooking purposes, electric coils have always been acceptable, and that's really where my attention is with the ban - I already know I won't feel direct pain…

It's all about the heat transfer, previous to gas we used bur ing wood, so a high heat transfer without physical contact. I'm not sure if there is even a way for a ln induction cooktop to provide heat over a distance. But sure, if it's mandated then chefs will have to change their cooking style, which -with plenty if grumbling from chefs - won't be the end of the world.

Sure but resistive stovetops could probably do this. They don’t all have to be induction, right?

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#570

Post by zionic » Sat, Jun 04, 2022, 3:37 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #209

zionic wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

gas stoves vent toxic fumes into the house, run the risk of blowing your house up, and are inferior to induction stoves in almost every way. Any time this comes up I love to singe the praises of induction!

> singe the praises Ah, that's lovely. :) - - - - Also pilot lights: older gas ranges have tiny flames burning 24/7 just in case you want to cook something in the middle of the night. (Most newer models use electric sparks "on demand" to light.)

Lol that was a typo but I’m keeping it!