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What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

latimes.com

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Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#491

Post by ricardobeat »

83afnpg wrote: post #471
ricardobeat wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction burners are extremely efficient (>80%) vs something like 40% for gas burners, so the induction would come ahead in your example (1400W vs 1100W). The cooktops you can buy here in Europe are limited to 3.7kW, and you can bridge two burners for up to 7.4kW. I rarely use one burner beyond ~70% power, anything above gets scorching hot (= burns everything) when using a good iron/steel pan. I heard the US has the…

They might be 80% efficient, but I think around 40% of California electricity comes from natural gas. It’s kind of silly to convert from gas to electricity to heat in terms of efficiency.

It may sound silly at first, but the numbers are not far off. The added losses for 50% (power plant) and 80% (cooktop) efficiency would give you the same 40% overall, but now you don't need massive pipes carrying flammable pressurized gas everywhere. And both of those numbers are probably higher for modern equipment (ex 60/90 = 54% overall efficiency).

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#492

Post by function_seven »

hnov wrote: post #489
function_seven wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person you're buying that used Prius from, what are they buying? Or: When you purchase that EV, what are you doing with your previous car? 2 different perspectives, both require new stock to enter the market. That new stock should be EV.

Possibly a new Prius, which should be less environmentally destructive to produce given its lower price (this is kinda disingenuous since price is only a rough predictor of env impact, there’s economies of scale, taxes and subsidies, etc) than an EV. Here’s another question though, in a state like CA which wants to shut down its last nuclear plant, has a bad outlook for hydro in the near future, where would you charg…

I'd charge it during the day at home, or a night at home. Depends on my electricity supply and whatever the time-of-use rates are.

Even charging an EV from a gas-fired power plant is still more efficient than burning gasoline in an ICE. Yes, even with transmission losses and charging losses. Burning gasoline in a small engine is wildly inefficient compared to utility-scale turbines burning natural gas. Hybrids have done a fantastic job in basically doubling this efficiency, but they're still no match for grid energy.

My grid averages about 233kg CO₂ per MWh delivered.

If I had an EV, and I charged it with 3,600kWh each year (12k miles), my annual CO₂ emissions would be around 900kg. Half of this is from gas plants. If I toss some panels on my roof, then the yearly emissions way down.

A new Prius driving the same amount is around 2,100kg.

So the argument comes down to the embodied carbon in the supply chain. The carbon released for EV manufacturing is about double that for a gas-only car. (I don't know where hybrids land on this, probably closer to gas than EV with their small batteries?)

But the operational emissions dwarf the manufacturing and disposal emissions. Cars last a really long time these days.

There are some regions (coal) where an EV will tie with a hybrid for net emissions. That's the worst case, a tie. But only one of those will automatically take advantage of grid improvements, more solar, etc.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#493

Post by potatochup »

ars wrote: post #16
teruakohatu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30 amp for the dryer plus 30 amp for the water heater plus 30 amp for the AC, Heat pump water heaters and heat pump air heaters solve that problem and save money. Heat pump dryers on the other hand are a bit rubbish (take a very long time to dry clothes, but they do save money).

Heat pump water heaters are also bad, I wanted to buy one and didn't because they are very slow to heat the water. Too slow to be useful for me. They are especially bad in northern climates since the incoming water is cold, and they put cold air in your house - which then has to be heated by the home heater. An A/C is already a heat pump.

Our heat-pump water heater is outdoors, so it doesn't cool the house down any further. Our hot water cylinder is also able to heat water if the heat pump can't keep up.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#494

Post by gwbas1c »

kec wrote: post #285
elil17 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's absolutely short sighted. Gas appliances are more efficient than electric appliances powered by natural gas fired power plants. While hydrogen might be a way's away (plus it requires redesigning everything), people (for example, Oberon fuels in California) are already mixing renewable dimethyl ether (similar to propane, but the central carbon atom is an oxygen atom) with propane in tanks for gas grills. St…

This isn't really true. Electric heating is as close to 100% efficient as is practical in the real world. I would also be shocked to learn that gas turbines at a power plant extract fewer watts per unit of gas than a simple (likely poorly maintained) burner in a residential setting.

The best gas generators are (approx) 60% efficient. Gas furnaces are around 90% efficient.

Electric heat pumps can go up to 300% efficient, and they don't care what kind of power source the grid uses.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#495

Post by gwbas1c »

wolverine876 wrote: post #184
gwbas1c wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in MA, and in my old house I heated and cooked with gas. In the summer my gas bill was $30. In the winter my gas bill would go up to about $200. One extremely cold January in 2015 nearly cost $300. So, yeah, space heating uses much more gas than cooking.

I wonder what affected your air quality more? I could see it either way.

We had a Viking stove with an extremely powerful fan. In general, it sucked everything out.

The furnace vented outside.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#496

Post by tbossanova »

thirtyfivecent wrote: post #456
tbossanova wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this point of view is that each contributor to climate change, by itself, is not especially significant. So if we dismiss each individually as being insignificant, we end up doing nothing about any of them. That’s my perception anyway, if you know of the big, highest priority climate change contributor that should be focused on before the smaller things, please let me know!

Quoted post unavailable.

Like for example if everyone on earth dropped a single penny every day? Then yes, I’d argue you would want to take a look at that.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#497

Post by frosted-flakes »

ricardobeat wrote: post #434
KingMachiavelli wrote: post #275

A large reason electric (restive and induction) are seen as inferior to gas is that portable units are limited to 120v/15a (few are 20a) so the total possible power is technically less than a gas stove; 2800w effective. However, gas stoves are very inefficient so in reality it's not a huge problem and 240v electric stoves could even be hotter (~4000w) than a gas stove. > Xie estimates that he pays around $500 to $700…

Induction burners are extremely efficient (>80%) vs something like 40% for gas burners, so the induction would come ahead in your example (1400W vs 1100W). The cooktops you can buy here in Europe are limited to 3.7kW, and you can bridge two burners for up to 7.4kW. I rarely use one burner beyond ~70% power, anything above gets scorching hot (= burns everything) when using a good iron/steel pan. I heard the US has the…

North American electrical infrastructure is natively 240v, split phase (two 120v hots, with a centre-tapped neutral). All houses have 240v power, and all stoves and ovens are already 240v at 40 or 50 amps. If there's a need for 240v power at a particular location (such as a high powered window AC unit), it's generally quite easy to switch a standard 120v circuit to 240v and replace the outlets on the circuit with their 240v counterparts (identical except the prongs are horizontal).

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#498

Post by frosted-flakes »

dekhn wrote: post #478
outworlder wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With electric, the pot/pan is resting on a heated surface that gradually cools down and can really ruin whatever's cooking. Sounds like you need to try an induction cooktop?

I've only had one experience with induction- probably 15 years ago now. It was a place we stayed in hawaii (like pre-airbnb) and there was a sign saying if you even looked at it wrong it would scratch the surface (necessitating a full replacement). Are they really strong now or do you still have to worry about scratching? Some googling suggests that you still need to be careful with cast iron.

No different than a standard resistive electric stovetop with ceramic glass.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#499

Post by amluto »

wolverine876 wrote: post #220
amluto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction stoves are quite efficient. Gas stoves, perhaps counterintuitively, are not. This is mostly because the considerable majority of the heat from the flame goes around the pot without heating it. (A pot on a grate is a terrible heat exchanger.) So it is not obviously a loss to burn gas to make electricity and then to use that electricity to cook. It may even be a win. All of this ignores that electric cooking…

> This is mostly because the considerable majority of the heat from the flame goes around the pot without heating it. (A pot on a grate is a terrible heat exchanger.) I always wonder: Why aren't pots insulated? Just putting the lid on allows me to cut the flame ~~ 80%.

You don’t want insulation — you want a heat exchanger. This product is actually quite effective:

https://turbopot.com/

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#500

Post by cmclaughlin »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #497
ricardobeat wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction burners are extremely efficient (>80%) vs something like 40% for gas burners, so the induction would come ahead in your example (1400W vs 1100W). The cooktops you can buy here in Europe are limited to 3.7kW, and you can bridge two burners for up to 7.4kW. I rarely use one burner beyond ~70% power, anything above gets scorching hot (= burns everything) when using a good iron/steel pan. I heard the US has the…

North American electrical infrastructure is natively 240v, split phase (two 120v hots, with a centre-tapped neutral). All houses have 240v power, and all stoves and ovens are already 240v at 40 or 50 amps. If there's a need for 240v power at a particular location (such as a high powered window AC unit), it's generally quite easy to switch a standard 120v circuit to 240v and replace the outlets on the circuit with the…

Getting a bit off topic here, but I’d like to learn more about this…

In most cases wouldn’t you need to run a thicker wire to replace a 120v outlet with 240v?

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