What a gas stove ban means for restaurants • Hacker News Board

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#471

Post by 83afnpg » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:26 PM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #434

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #275

A large reason electric (restive and induction) are seen as inferior to gas is that portable units are limited to 120v/15a (few are 20a) so the total possible power is technically less than a gas stove; 2800w effective. However, gas stoves are very inefficient so in reality it's not a huge problem and 240v electric stoves could even be hotter (~4000w) than a gas stove. > Xie estimates that he pays around $500 to $700…

Induction burners are extremely efficient (>80%) vs something like 40% for gas burners, so the induction would come ahead in your example (1400W vs 1100W). The cooktops you can buy here in Europe are limited to 3.7kW, and you can bridge two burners for up to 7.4kW. I rarely use one burner beyond ~70% power, anything above gets scorching hot (= burns everything) when using a good iron/steel pan. I heard the US has the…

They might be 80% efficient, but I think around 40% of California electricity comes from natural gas. It’s kind of silly to convert from gas to electricity to heat in terms of efficiency.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#472

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:27 PM UTC

throwaway743 wrote: post #465

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #275

A large reason electric (restive and induction) are seen as inferior to gas is that portable units are limited to 120v/15a (few are 20a) so the total possible power is technically less than a gas stove; 2800w effective. However, gas stoves are very inefficient so in reality it's not a huge problem and 240v electric stoves could even be hotter (~4000w) than a gas stove. > Xie estimates that he pays around $500 to $700…

Not a chef, but I cook nearly every meal, whether home or at my SO's. A gas stove is a world of difference compared to cooking with an electric one. One major pain point is that the number settings on electric barely provide insight as to what level of heat you're cooking with, and there seems to be a lack of consistency between one electric stove to another. Whereas with gas, you can just eye the flames and know wha…

> Whereas with gas, you can just eye the flames and know what you're dealing with without resorting to the knob settings, regardless of which stove you're using.

Not the case. Our son cooks on some cheap-ass gas stove with burners about 2-3" in diameter. I cook on a Viking. There's nothing about the flames on either stove that will give you any idea how many BTU's are reaching the food. You have to learn to correlate the flame appearance with cooking results. First efforts will likely burn on the Viking and slow-cook on the el cheapo.

As noted by another comment, it really does sound as if you have not used an induction stove. And in particular, that you have not seen the latest "innovation" of surrounding the heating elements with variable brightness/size blue LEDs to simulate the flame effect.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#473

Post by Spivak » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:28 PM UTC

jhbadger wrote: post #405

I grew up using traditional electric (not even inductive; just the normal 1970s kind) and it was absolutely fine. Where I live now has gas (the first in my 50+ year life) and I don't think it's something amazing; I actually find it kind of irritating to be honest. I think it's just what people are used to. Going to electric from gas is irritating, but so is the reverse.

Non-induction electric has the huge huge advantage of being user serviceable but is absolutely garbage to cook with. The coils heat non-uniformly and pans aren’t perfectly flat and so make uneven contact with them.

Now there are “radiant” cooktops but for some dumb reason they encase them in glass which I’m sure is for safety or efficiency but also makes them annoying because, again, pan aren’t flat. We are perfectly capable of making literally a gas stove but with electric coils just like ovens but we don’t. It would solve basically every issue with them except the speed to adjust temperature but I could live with that.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#474

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:29 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #455

b112 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interface issue. Instead of a knob, it's usually a touch interface, with +/- control, and slowish.

UI is orthogonal to the heat source.

Not when the UI includes (or does not include) a view of the heat source.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#475

Post by pandaman » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #275

A large reason electric (restive and induction) are seen as inferior to gas is that portable units are limited to 120v/15a (few are 20a) so the total possible power is technically less than a gas stove; 2800w effective. However, gas stoves are very inefficient so in reality it's not a huge problem and 240v electric stoves could even be hotter (~4000w) than a gas stove. > Xie estimates that he pays around $500 to $700…

Residential gas appliances can draw up to 100 kBTU/h from the gas line. That's about 30 kW. Commercial gas lines are twice as wide, they supply 200 kBTU/h i.e. 60 kW. It's true that 30 kW is more than 2800 W though.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#476

Post by realreality » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:33 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #437

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine many professionals would wildly appreciate changing their core tool from underneath them, regardless of whether the tool is actually better. If I wanted to stir the pot with a grenade, I’d say it’s like asking Vim users whether they should all move to VS Code.

> I’d say it’s like asking Vim users whether they should all move to VS Code. If Vim was actively contributing to climate change and fouling the air of everyone around me, I'd switch tomorrow. VS Code has Vim bindings, I'm sure. I'll be okay. We're long past the point where everybody keeps being able to do their first favorite thing at all times, _and_ we somehow also solve this huge problem we've gotten ourselves in…

VS Code obviously contributes more to climate change than Vim.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#477

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

tompccs wrote: post #411

occz wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that this is relevant at all in the context of this discussion - electric cooking methods - particularly induction - are superior to gas in essentially every way, shape or form - barring the production of wok hei, which is why the article stresses that so much, while conveniently leaving out all the massive downsides of gas stoves. Gas stoves are also generally used by gas companies to get gas lines dra…

Everything you have written is wrong. Gas is very efficient. If you have the choice of burning gas at a power station (which is how a lot of electricity is generated now a days) and piping it directly into people's homes for the end goal of generating heat, piping wins every time. The inefficiencies of converting gas to electricity and transporting that electricity are significant and well known. Additionally, I don'…

> Heat pumps are also a vastly overrated technology which only work for very well insulated houses with an HVAC system which keeps the rooms ventilated artificially.

Well that's weird. I live in 1875 adobe house with no HVAC system other than my wall-mounted minisplits. The house is poorly insulated (adobe has high thermal mass but is a very poor insulator, plus lots of leaky windows and roof construction details). The heat pumps kept us warm during this last winter's 5F overnights.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#478

Post by dekhn » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #469

throwaway743 wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a chef, but I cook nearly every meal, whether home or at my SO's. A gas stove is a world of difference compared to cooking with an electric one. One major pain point is that the number settings on electric barely provide insight as to what level of heat you're cooking with, and there seems to be a lack of consistency between one electric stove to another. Whereas with gas, you can just eye the flames and know wha…

> With electric, the pot/pan is resting on a heated surface that gradually cools down and can really ruin whatever's cooking. Sounds like you need to try an induction cooktop?

I've only had one experience with induction- probably 15 years ago now. It was a place we stayed in hawaii (like pre-airbnb) and there was a sign saying if you even looked at it wrong it would scratch the surface (necessitating a full replacement). Are they really strong now or do you still have to worry about scratching? Some googling suggests that you still need to be careful with cast iron.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#479

Post by jdmichal » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:36 PM UTC

tompccs wrote: post #411

occz wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that this is relevant at all in the context of this discussion - electric cooking methods - particularly induction - are superior to gas in essentially every way, shape or form - barring the production of wok hei, which is why the article stresses that so much, while conveniently leaving out all the massive downsides of gas stoves. Gas stoves are also generally used by gas companies to get gas lines dra…

Everything you have written is wrong. Gas is very efficient. If you have the choice of burning gas at a power station (which is how a lot of electricity is generated now a days) and piping it directly into people's homes for the end goal of generating heat, piping wins every time. The inefficiencies of converting gas to electricity and transporting that electricity are significant and well known. Additionally, I don'…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump#In_cold_c...

A study by Natural Resources Canada found that cold climate air source heat pumps (CC-ASHPs) work in Canadian winters, based on testing in Ottawa (Ontario) in late December 2012 to early January 2013 using a ducted CC-ASHP. (The report does not explicitly state whether backup heat sources should be considered for temperatures below −30 °C. The record low for Ottawa is −36 °C.) The CC-ASHP provided 60% energy savings compared to natural gas (in energy units).[10] When considering energy efficiency in electricity generation however, more energy would be used with the CC-ASHP, relative to natural gas heating, in provinces or territories (Alberta, Nova Scotia, and the Northwest Territories) where coal-fired generation was the predominant method of electricity generation. (The energy savings in Saskatchewan were marginal. Other provinces use primarily hydroelectric and/or nuclear generation.) Despite the significant energy savings relative to gas in provinces not relying primarily on coal, the higher cost of electricity relative to natural gas (using 2012 retail prices in Ottawa, Ontario) made natural gas the less expensive energy source.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#480

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 11:37 PM UTC

saxonww wrote: post #403

BeetleB wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have statistics on people's preferences? Anecdotes: I've yet to live in an apartment/house that actually had a gas stove. No one I know made gas a criterion when house/apartment hunting. They use whatever the place has. When leaving a place with a gas stove, none of them cared if the new place would be electric or gas. On the flip side, I know quite a few people that exclude places with gas stoves when hunting…

I would prefer gas over regular electric for kitchen stove and range. I like having a gas water heater, although I understand there are more expensive electric units that end up being more efficient, and that is appealing. I would like to have a gas clothes dryer vs. electric, but don't have the option. Regular electric ranges typically do not perform as well for cooking. They can be better for cleaning and aesthetic…

> Induction ranges are a very appealing subset of electric, but tend to require beefier circuits than most people have running to their kitchen;

Resistive electric ranges almost always require a 240V circuit, and unless you go for a high-end (high output) induction unit, the most that might be required is a new breaker in the panel.