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What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

latimes.com

241–250 of 614 posts

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#241

I always find laughable when governments are scolding or limiting peasants for basically nothing, while ignoring the elephant in the room. * You need to conserve the water, California peasant! Ignore the fact that 80% of water in California is consumed by agriculture and we are not going to do anything about it. * You need to stop using your gas stove, peasant! Ignore the fact that we are going to switch off Diablo N…

I was driving home the other day and heard on the radio that the LA city government implemented a ban on plastic utensils at city events. This is what happens when you cannot perform at your job and you just do anything which can be persuaded with little effort to show that you're not just fucking around all day at work. Watching local government operate is a sight to behold. I don't even know on what merits these people get elected. They are absolutely incapacitated and inadequate.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#242
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is the age old false dichotomy between personal use (minuscule percentage of green house gasses) versus agricultural/commercial use (the actual elephant in the room).

Commercial and residential GHG emissions are significant. Yes we should absolutely be doing more to curb emissions from ag/industry, but we shouldn't pretend that it's not also worth addressing restaurants and homes.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#243
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction stoves are quite efficient. Gas stoves, perhaps counterintuitively, are not. This is mostly because the considerable majority of the heat from the flame goes around the pot without heating it. (A pot on a grate is a terrible heat exchanger.) So it is not obviously a loss to burn gas to make electricity and then to use that electricity to cook. It may even be a win. All of this ignores that electric cooking…

> This is mostly because the considerable majority of the heat from the flame goes around the pot without heating it. (A pot on a grate is a terrible heat exchanger.) I always wonder: Why aren't pots insulated? Just putting the lid on allows me to cut the flame ~~ 80%.

You want pots to conduct heat, not contain it. The closest comparison is cast iron which has a large mass, so heat ebbs and flows from it slowly (and, is more consistent).

Insulation would mean you have an even harder time transferring heat to the pot, so it's not only worthless, it's actively bad.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#244
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat pump water heaters are also bad, I wanted to buy one and didn't because they are very slow to heat the water. Too slow to be useful for me. They are especially bad in northern climates since the incoming water is cold, and they put cold air in your house - which then has to be heated by the home heater. An A/C is already a heat pump.

Is this a theoretical analysis? My assessment is that they are already much better, particularly if combined with an efficient house and sufficient battery storage to use low demand electricity. The power output from an ASHP can exceed a typical gas boiler if that is desired.

> The power output from an ASHP can exceed a typical gas boiler if that is desired.

That is desired, and apparently is not actually the case. I did my research and that's what people tell me, so I didn't get one.

They might work better in hotter climates, but in northern ones with incoming water near freezing, they don't.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#245

I always find laughable when governments are scolding or limiting peasants for basically nothing, while ignoring the elephant in the room. * You need to conserve the water, California peasant! Ignore the fact that 80% of water in California is consumed by agriculture and we are not going to do anything about it. * You need to stop using your gas stove, peasant! Ignore the fact that we are going to switch off Diablo N…

I'm going to be a bit pedantic because I do think it's important that folks get a full understanding of what the water situation in California is that doesn't sound cherry-picked or narrative driven.

https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

80% of human consumption is by agriculture and most of that agriculture is not satiating the needs of Californians. It's also important to note that farms are doing significant work on this:

> Higher-revenue perennial crops—nuts, grapes, and other fruit—have increased as a share of irrigated acreage (from 16% in 1980 to 33% in 2015 statewide, and from 21% to 45% in the southern Central Valley). This shift, plus rising crop yields, has increased the economic return on water used for agriculture. Farm production generated 38% more gross state product in 2015 than in 1980, even though farm water use was about 14% lower.

The rest of the economy is outpacing these efficiencies though, so it pales agricultures value to the GDP year over year.

Urban water usage is also falling:

> The San Francisco Bay and South Coast regions account for most urban water use in California. Both rely heavily on water imported from other parts of the state. Total urban water use has been falling even as the population grows. Even before the latest drought, per capita water use had declined significantly—from 231 gallons per day in 1990 to 180 gallons per day in 2010—reflecting substantial efforts to reduce water use through pricing incentives and mandatory installation of water-saving technologies like low-flow toilets and shower heads. In 2015, per capita use fell to 146 gallons per day in response to drought-related conservation requirements. Much of the recent savings came from reducing landscape watering, which makes up roughly half of all urban water use. Per capita use has since rebounded slightly, but a new state law will require further long-term reductions.

Big takeaway here, large urban centers are not in our best interest.

Environment use is split into four categories:

- Water in rivers protected as “wild and scenic” under federal and state laws

- Water required for maintaining habitat within streams

- Water that supports wetlands within wildlife preserves

- Water needed to maintain water quality for agricultural and urban use

> Half of California’s environmental water use occurs in rivers along the state’s north coast. These waters are largely isolated from major agricultural and urban areas, and their wild and scenic status protects them from significant future development. In dry years, the share of water that goes to the environment decreases dramatically as flows diminish in rivers and streams. At the height of the 2012‒16 drought, the state also reduced water allocations for the environment to reserve some supplies for farms and cities.

I think environment needs to be split out into its own categories, one is very farm adjacent, two have to do with maintaining habitats that (our own) interactions have devastated or made dependent on artificial means, and the last is basically "untapped" water.

Fixing water in California isn't going to be as simple as sweeping changes in agriculture, though that is needed as well. It also means dismantling dense urban centers and making them more sustainable and establishing criteria for when we support a habitat artificially and for how long.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#246

Because the electricity isn’t generated by mostly natural gas anyway and will continue to be for the foreseeable future…this doesn’t reduce emissions, it’s just authoritarian virtue signaling. If they tell those of us that live in a cold climate that we can’t have gas furnaces and gas water heaters, they are going to be rudely awakened by our response.

It is easier to capture CO2 when using it at a plant to produce electricity than when burning it in a stove.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#247
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So using electricity instead of natural gas in your home is wasteful." I (genuinely) wonder if what's true. I remember thinking the same things about electric car "how can burning fuel in a factory, storing it, send it thought line for kilometers and then store them in a car batteries and then feed the motor be more efficient than burning fuel directly in the motor" and was proven false. Assuming we aldready have th…

If you're burning fuel for power that's one thing, but you don't get any conversion losses at all if you're burning it for heat underneath/inside the thing you want to be hot.

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Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m suspicious of the appropriateness of the even in this phrase. Massive bureaucracies with no competition produce late, cost-ineffective megaprojects, and a nuclear reactor is essentially megaproject bait even if does not actually have to built as one (unlike, say, a hydroelectric station). I’m reminded of how Higgs physics on the LHC is done on two completely independent detectors, ATLAS and CMS, because only buil…

The problem at the root cause is the public's (reasonable!) expectations about safety. Humanity has experienced twice just how much damage a nuclear reactor blowing up can cause, not to mention how brittle they are and how lax people treat safety - just look at how many accidents happened at Sellafield - or the terrorism risk. Many of the experimental design ideas add the question of nuclear weapons proliferation on…

> Humanity has experienced twice just how much damage a nuclear reactor blowing up can cause

We haven't, really. We were quite lucky.

What if the Chernobyl disaster had reached the Pripyat river, and in turn contaminated the Dnieper? We are all familiar with them geography of Ukraine now.

What if a radioactive cloud from Fukushima had reached Tokyo?

What would have been the cost of a temporary evacuation of Tokyo?

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in MA, and in my old house I heated and cooked with gas. In the summer my gas bill was $30. In the winter my gas bill would go up to about $200. One extremely cold January in 2015 nearly cost $300. So, yeah, space heating uses much more gas than cooking.

I wonder what affected your air quality more? I could see it either way.

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Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#250

It seems like an alternative might be to use induction to warm a small heat exchange device, then blow air through it so that extremely hot air similar to a gas flame comes out. Probably some engineering would be needed, but not that much. There are already serious problems with water vapor condensation from burning natural gas so this could potentially be a superior alternative with more opportunities for controllin…

No point to induction then. Just use a resistive element. Seems like it would be hard to heat the air fast enough to compete, but who knows.

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