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Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#41

Post by paxys »

TrevorJ wrote: post #2

How much better than a human driver does a self-driving system need to be before we as a society will accept fully autonomous vehicles? That seems like the key question which we are spending very little effort trying to understand. Until we have a national conversation about this, I suspect self-driving will be an intractable problem.

The problem with this approach is that the average human driver includes teenagers, very old people who shouldn't be driving, drunk drivers, distracted drivers, speeders, reckless drivers and lots more categories whose accident risk is a LOT higher than the baseline. As someone who doesn't fall into any of these, I wouldn't accept a self driving system that's merely better than average, it has to be better than ME.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#42

Post by tablespoon »

standyro wrote: post #26
majormunky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2019 Subaru Crosstrek has adaptive cruise control, and i've had it hit the brakes pretty hard when there's nothing in the way. Luckily it doesn't happen often.

Sadly, Subarus don't make headlines though. A Tesla does just about anything and it's local news and Facebook fodder. I don't get people texting me about typical ICE cars on fire after accidents ~ for some reason people think Tesla's are noteworthy in that regard? Like other cars don't have sketchy LKAS/cruise control systems or crash?

>> My 2019 Subaru Crosstrek has adaptive cruise control, and i've had it hit the brakes pretty hard when there's nothing in the way. Luckily it doesn't happen often.

> Sadly, Subarus don't make headlines though. A Tesla does just about anything and it's local news and Facebook fodder.

Why sadly? Subaru hasn't been loudly making empty promises about self-driving capability and hasn't been aggressively pushing not-fully-cooked self-driving software onto the road.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#44

Post by notJim »

124816 wrote: post #16
robonerd wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You continue using this feature despite these errors occurring daily? The way you describe it makes autopilot seem like an inexperienced teenage driver; I think whatever marginal safety benefit you get from it might be erased by the life-shortening stress such erratic car behavior must induce.

You cannot turn this behavior off persistently -- you need to open car settings and disable it every time you leave Park. My guess is that some jurisdictions mandate this behavior. When this "feature" triggers you have a short window in which to do _something_ to tell the car that you are paying attention. Your options are either: accellerate or brake. If you do nothing the car may apply full brakes and bring you to…

What behavior are you referring to? We are talking about autopilot, and possibly FSD, neither of which are engaged by default (obviously!) What do you mean they can't be turned off?

> When this "feature" triggers you have a short window in which to do _something_ to tell the car that you are paying attention. Your options are either: accelerate or brake. If you do nothing the car may apply full brakes and bring you to a full stop, regardless what is behind you.

Again, what is this? I have a Tesla, and I'm not aware of any feature that requires me to accelerate or brake to prevent the car from stopping itself.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#45

Post by nrjames »

klyrs wrote: post #38
colordrops wrote: post #3

This is probably happening a lot more than the number of reports mentioned in the article indicates. It happens to me every other day in my Model 3. It's also not binary - sometimes it slows down more quickly than other times, or stops too suddenly when a car is stopped in front of you. Seems real easy to get rear-ended. I've only got autopilot, not FSD. It's very conservative. It always considers someone to be in fr…

I don't drive a Tesla, but my car is a newer model with "smart" cruise control. It freaks out whenever there's a slight curve in the road and there's a car in the next lane over. Do Teslas have the same issue?

No, only if the lane markings aren't visible. It's pretty good at identifying where the lanes are.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#46

Post by pa7ch »

dotancohen wrote: post #37
colordrops wrote: post #3

This is probably happening a lot more than the number of reports mentioned in the article indicates. It happens to me every other day in my Model 3. It's also not binary - sometimes it slows down more quickly than other times, or stops too suddenly when a car is stopped in front of you. Seems real easy to get rear-ended. I've only got autopilot, not FSD. It's very conservative. It always considers someone to be in fr…

For what it's worth, I've tried and failed to reproduce this on my Model 3. I've driven next to trucks, motorcycles, under overpasses, under very-low overpasses, near pedestrians, and even passed camels and horses on the side of the road. No phantom braking. That said, when using the lane-assist, I do prefer to keep my foot on the accelerator pedal anyway. To increase range, I try not to get into regen at all unless…

Agreed this always bothered me about cruise control as well. Particularly for electric cars I am wishing for a dedicated physical toggle or slider to instantly disable or dial-back regen for the times I want to coast.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#47

Post by fipar »

rideontime wrote: post #18
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Seems real easy to get rear-ended. Which, in this age of cheap ubiquitous dash-cams, isn't nearly as likely to be the "inconvenient waste of time but zero financial risk" deal it used to be Edit: Since apparently this needs explaining, insurers will consider evidence and happily doll out blame to a party that does something dumb in proportion to their fault (with slight variations per differences in law from state t…

To say nothing of the "inconvenience" to the driver who wasn't at fault but would have been assumed to be.

Where I live (not the US) the only way rear-ending would be the tailing vehicle's fault is if the front vehicle was running in reverse. Otherwise, it's your responsibility to maintain a safe distance form the vehicle ahead, and one should assume this vehicle may stop unexpectedly. You're always at fault if you rear-end someone.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#48

Post by netsharc »

glitchc wrote: post #35
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for OP, but I'm supposed to be paying attention at all times while autopilot is enabled; as soon as I feel the vehicle may phantom brake, I apply more pressure to the accelerator to maintain speed. I believe the NHTSA is going to require Tesla retrofit radar on all vehicles to mitigate their Tesla Vision functionality deficiency. (submitted lengthy dash cam videos and accelerometer data to the NHTSA as a…

You accelerate harder to compensate for a car that brakes too quickly? This is considered normal in Tesla-land? Your fix reminds me of this: https://xkcd.com/1172/

Hah, one time my computer had periodic hiccups where the mouse cursor update rate would slow down and back to normal within a second, it almost turned me into the Hulk... I can't imagine driving a car with that problem.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#49

Post by klyrs »

nrjames wrote: post #45
klyrs wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't drive a Tesla, but my car is a newer model with "smart" cruise control. It freaks out whenever there's a slight curve in the road and there's a car in the next lane over. Do Teslas have the same issue?

No, only if the lane markings aren't visible. It's pretty good at identifying where the lanes are.

> No, only if the lane markings aren't visible

That's... most of Canada, thanks to the snowplows. Good to know.

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