I rarely have this issue, but I have a 2019 Model 3 with radar and Autopilot (not full self driving) ~ although I was admittedly extremely slow to upgrade to the latest v11 software and have experienced it more recently. Seems to be a major problem with cars that shipped in the past year or two without radar. Seems like a blunder that Tesla made not to include radar because of the parts shortage, that they're struggling to solve with software only based on cameras/vision.
Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#22This happens to me just using the adaptive cruise control, no Autopilot or FSD enabled and it's super annoying. Can happen on a completely empty road driving in a straight line.
That's... appalling. My 2019 Leaf has absolutely zero problems maintaining distance with adaptive cruise control, using the ancient technology formerly known as radar. It can somehow even see stationary vehicles, something I thought wasn't feasible.
>It can somehow even see stationary vehicles, something I thought wasn't feasible.
Radar seeing stationary objects is trivial, it sees them just like it sees any other. The trick is seeing only the stationary objects which are actually relevant; e.g. not seeing a street sign suspended above the road, or a tree next to the road, but only the stationary objects in the path of the car. The radar configuration that Tesla use[s/d] apparently has awful angular resolution, making this differentiation difficult if not impossible. But this isn't inherent to all radar technology; some radars can have good angular resolution. For instance with SAR or ISAR, you can produce high resolution 2d images. But I don't know what kind of radar systems your Leaf has.
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#23An anecdote in a sea of data - My 2022 Model 3 had a pretty serious phantom braking problem until 2 or 3 software releases ago. Now it seems to be entirely resolved in my use case. For context, I drive 200-400 miles a week, 95% of which using autopilot on divided highways and well-marked two or four lane roads.
Seems like radar equipped cars had less issues and they've finally worked out some of the kinks with the vision only system.
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#24Most of the “driver aids” available today have the competency of a drunk or highly inexperienced driver. Just maintaining lane is a problem for all the systems I have had the opportunity to try. They are easily flummoxed by worn or moved lane lines (like you would see in a construction area). I view it as a definite upgrade over traditional cruise control, but it’s so far away from self driving it’s laughable to even…
i recently rented a late model rav4 and described the experience of radar cruise (on an admittedly challenging road) to be "like having a drunk lead-footed teenager at the wheel."
lots of overaggressive acceleration and deceleration, with all too frequent state changes.
personally i'd rather just have regular cruise and something that will drive the car competently at low speeds in heavy congestion.
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#25I think Elon needs to open source the braking flowchart…
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#26This happens to me just using the adaptive cruise control, no Autopilot or FSD enabled and it's super annoying. Can happen on a completely empty road driving in a straight line.
My 2019 Subaru Crosstrek has adaptive cruise control, and i've had it hit the brakes pretty hard when there's nothing in the way. Luckily it doesn't happen often.
Sadly, Subarus don't make headlines though. A Tesla does just about anything and it's local news and Facebook fodder. I don't get people texting me about typical ICE cars on fire after accidents ~ for some reason people think Tesla's are noteworthy in that regard? Like other cars don't have sketchy LKAS/cruise control systems or crash?
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#27How much better than a human driver does a self-driving system need to be before we as a society will accept fully autonomous vehicles? That seems like the key question which we are spending very little effort trying to understand. Until we have a national conversation about this, I suspect self-driving will be an intractable problem.
Personally, I'm kind of done having "national conversations", I don't think having all these fruitful perspectives has really driven us anywhere but mad. The people at the NHTSA need to be non-appointed SME's that heavily prioritize safety and balance efficiency and innovation below the safety threshold. The government then needs to respect them as an institution that protects people within its domain (drivers and pedestrians) and they need to either guide, force, or destroy violators.
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#28How much better than a human driver does a self-driving system need to be before we as a society will accept fully autonomous vehicles? That seems like the key question which we are spending very little effort trying to understand. Until we have a national conversation about this, I suspect self-driving will be an intractable problem.
I don't think real L4+ self-driving will be feasible until we change how the roads are designed to support such vehicles. Having clear indicators and markings that are maintained properly will not only help L4 but also L2 and even human drivers.
So yes, it would require a standards-based solution - and that's where government involvement is essential.
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
You continue using this feature despite these errors occurring daily? The way you describe it makes autopilot seem like an inexperienced teenage driver; I think whatever marginal safety benefit you get from it might be erased by the life-shortening stress such erratic car behavior must induce.
Can't speak for OP, but I'm supposed to be paying attention at all times while autopilot is enabled; as soon as I feel the vehicle may phantom brake, I apply more pressure to the accelerator to maintain speed. I believe the NHTSA is going to require Tesla retrofit radar on all vehicles to mitigate their Tesla Vision functionality deficiency. (submitted lengthy dash cam videos and accelerometer data to the NHTSA as a…
I have an early release Model 3 with radar. I suspect they stopped using the radar in a software update once they started releasing Model 3s without radar, as it didn't have this jerky stopping behavior before that.
Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Seems real easy to get rear-ended. Which, in this age of cheap ubiquitous dash-cams, isn't nearly as likely to be the "inconvenient waste of time but zero financial risk" deal it used to be Edit: Since apparently this needs explaining, insurers will consider evidence and happily doll out blame to a party that does something dumb in proportion to their fault (with slight variations per differences in law from state t…
To say nothing of the "inconvenience" to the driver who wasn't at fault but would have been assumed to be.
In which jurisdiction would the rear-ending driver not be at fault? He was either inattentive or failed to maintain proper distance. Sure, driving too close is common, but that doesn't make it right