What a gas stove ban means for restaurants • Hacker News Board

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#151

Post by Mikeb85 » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:49 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #69

Mikeb85 wrote: post #65

In Europe almost everyone and many (most?) restaurants are electric-only. It means nothing for restaurants except they'll need to get electric appliances and grills will be slightly less common (since electric grills aren't great and solid fuel grills require their own hood vent).

> many (most?) restaurants are electric-only. Are you in the restaurant industry? Maybe you know more than me, but about 3/4 of restaurants I go to in Europe have open kitchens, and I mean it's completely obvious that every single one of them is using gas, as you can literally see the flames, and I guess those with closed kitchens it's similar, so I can't square what you're saying with my own eyes.

https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/R06_Cooking_FINAL_GSOK.pd...

Here's some stats.

And yes I'm in the restaurant industry.

Also keep in mind in Europe you can buy large cooking suites that look like traditional ranges that are all electric. You can get electric "French top" ranges. Most combi ovens sold are electric.

In homes most built-in ranges are electric/induction. Freestanding ranges are slightly in favour of gas but most ovens are electric, even in freestanding applications.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#152

Post by giraffe_lady » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #147

I know this is about the environmental impacts, but isn't it also bad for you to have in your home? Surprised that's not more discussed here.

It's discussed prominently every time gas stoves are even sideways-relevant to an article?

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#153

Post by seoaeu » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #129

gruez wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The whole carbon footprint thing was created to shift blame from the dirty industry to inviduals you think that "the dirty industry" are just emitting carbon for the fun of it?

Not op, but no, they don’t do it for fun, they do it for money. Emitting carbon has negative externalities (climate change) that are not priced into the emissions, rather they are passed onto the future you and future generations. We can change this by putting a price on carbon. This will incentivize the growth of cleaner alternatives, give Joe an opportunity to not contribute to emissions, and this will affect the p…

The people who finance those emissions are ultimately their customers. If you drive a polluting SUV or eat a ton of beef, those emissions emissions are a consequence of your decisions.

The systematic issues that folk talk about abstractly are things like “too many people pick SUVs rather than commuting by subway” or “society needs to switch away from eating so much beef”. It isn’t just a matter of waltzing into a factory and turning some dials that the greedy factory owner doesn’t want to change

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#154

Post by uoaei » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #125

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep... BP can cause a huge maritime catastrophe (deepwater horizon spill), but let's blame Johnny Average here for drinking soda by using a straw. The whole carbon footprint thing was created to shift blame from the dirty industry to inviduals - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/23/big-oi...

That is false. The carbon footprint idea was designed to analyze what is going on and conceive of next steps. The argument you are making is clearly false because basic calculations show that industry and commerce have carbon footprints far larger than individuals. Also this criticism fails to take into account how people actually live. When I was in Menlo Park, California it was discovered that pool filter pumps dra…

The recurrent phenomenon of "pick a corner-case counterexample and act like that disproves the trend" on HN is really getting grating.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#155

Post by kmtrowbr » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

I don't see how it makes sense: the electricity has to be generated, which is almost always via burning something to heat a boiler. Then the electricity is sent to houses via the grid, which involves further losses. So you burn something, make heat, make electricity, send the electricity though wires, to make heat. Vs, just making heat directly in the house to accomplish the job.

If all our electricity came from renewable power then sure, I agree. But most does not. So, this seems like putting the cart before the horse. Why not focus on improving how we generate electricity before we tear out all the gas?

My undergrad degree was electrical engineering. Basically, it seems visible to everyday people, and theatrical, but not that helpful or practical. Happy to hear how I'm wrong. I am certainly very concerned about the environment.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#156

Post by sudden_dystopia » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:53 PM UTC

Because the electricity isn’t generated by mostly natural gas anyway and will continue to be for the foreseeable future…this doesn’t reduce emissions, it’s just authoritarian virtue signaling.

If they tell those of us that live in a cold climate that we can’t have gas furnaces and gas water heaters, they are going to be rudely awakened by our response.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#157

Post by al_borland » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #131

al_borland wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been looking into replacing my terrible electric range with one that has induction burners. One consideration I saw when looking at comparisons was that electric and induction really require a flat bottom pan. If your pan is curved, you need gas to evenly heat it. So when it comes to something like a wok, you need gas. To eliminate gas is to eliminate the wok as a means of cooking.

For a wok, you need an actual electric wok, a special induction stove for woks [0] (of course this is a thing!), or gas. On the flip side, if you have a mediocre pan with a thick base but thin walls, an induction stove won’t heat the walls the way a gas stove would, which will reduce burning. [0] https://www.atcooker.com/products/commercial-induction-wok/ for example. I have no idea if this is any good.

Interesting. I wonder if the law makers are looking at the environmental cost of producing all these new cooktops vs using what has already been produced.

Kind of like the plastic Nalgene bottle you already own, and functions perfectly fine, is better for the environment than throwing it out to buy a new stainless steel bottle. Granted, the water bottle example doesn't require a fuel source for continued use.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#158

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #151

chrisseaton wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many (most?) restaurants are electric-only. Are you in the restaurant industry? Maybe you know more than me, but about 3/4 of restaurants I go to in Europe have open kitchens, and I mean it's completely obvious that every single one of them is using gas, as you can literally see the flames, and I guess those with closed kitchens it's similar, so I can't square what you're saying with my own eyes.

https://iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/R06_Cooking_FINAL_GSOK.pd... Here's some stats. And yes I'm in the restaurant industry. Also keep in mind in Europe you can buy large cooking suites that look like traditional ranges that are all electric. You can get electric "French top" ranges. Most combi ovens sold are electric. In homes most built-in ranges are electric/induction. Freestanding ranges are slightly in favour of g…

Doesn't seem to support your view? 'Within the EU, little data is available ... 41,000 electric devices and 9,200 gas appliances were sold'.

And I mean like I say - I have eyes and I can see that it definitely is not the case that the majority of restaurants in Europe do not use gas.

If you say you work in restaurants then I'm sure you know what you're talking about - only explanation can be we're connected to this website from parallel universes.

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#159

Post by danans » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #59

breadloaf wrote: post #44

I always find laughable when governments are scolding or limiting peasants for basically nothing, while ignoring the elephant in the room. * You need to conserve the water, California peasant! Ignore the fact that 80% of water in California is consumed by agriculture and we are not going to do anything about it. * You need to stop using your gas stove, peasant! Ignore the fact that we are going to switch off Diablo N…

Ignore the fact that we are going to switch off Diablo Nuclear Power plant and replace it with gas plants. That's a bit disingenuous. Those units were brought online in 1985 and 1986 and are licensed to operate through 2025. That's forty years - which is the life span of a power plant, especially a nuclear power plant. So, they're not being "switched off", they've hit end-of-life. Building a new nuclear power station…

> The real issue is much more complicated.

Come on now, don't leave us hanging like that!

Re: What a gas stove ban means for restaurants

#160

Post by elil17 » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #146

Is hydrogen practical? What about other forms of bio-gas? Personally I wonder if shutting down the gas network for cooking, and backup generators, is short-sighted. It seems to make more sense to push for mixing in carbon neutral gas sources and letting cost be more of a motivating factor. IE: I pay about $20 a month for gas in the summer when I just use it for cooking and grilling. They could swap in carbon-neutral…

Yeah, it's absolutely short sighted. Gas appliances are more efficient than electric appliances powered by natural gas fired power plants. While hydrogen might be a way's away (plus it requires redesigning everything), people (for example, Oberon fuels in California) are already mixing renewable dimethyl ether (similar to propane, but the central carbon atom is an oxygen atom) with propane in tanks for gas grills. Storing fuels is cheaper and better for the environment than storing electricity. Expanding the electric grid will be more challenging than repurposing the gas grid.