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Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

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Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

>Digital is cold and thin compared to analog. Claude Shannon emphatically disagrees. When sampling at twice the highest audible frequency they are mathematically equivalent.

Not quite - Nyquist-Shannon's theorem states the original signal can be reconstructed, but it usually isn't in reproduction. Digital playback does not reproduce the full original signal - it plays it back on whatever output device it has, which does not generally recreate the original waveform.

That theorem also has some technical constraints that actual noise does not match, such as band limited and Fourier transforms that are zero outside some bound. Actual music does not match those. It can be approximated with those.

For example, suppose you have a pure sine wave, sample it with enough density to make it mathematically reproducible, then play back those quantized samples on a piezo making square waves - it sounds pretty good (and can be indistinguishable to most ears), but it is not the same waveform.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#122
post #59

Interestingly, labels playing games about releasing albums is an old trick for various old reasons too. https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2010/apr/15/arti... https://www.buzzfeed.com/azafar/what-happens-when-your-favor... for a couple old references A change in negotiation power seems like a good evolution of the industry for anyone but record industry execs. But this "record industry is committing suicide"…

It's not committing suicide - it's just fighting over the rights to the tide pool where the water receded entirely unaware of the tsunami barreling towards them. When the software world can convincingly create new songs that sound like the hit songs people like, but sufficiently different to dodge copyright law, then it's game over. We don't blink an eye at efforts to do things like complete one of Beethoven's sympho…

> We don't blink an eye at efforts to do things like complete one of Beethoven's symphonies. But that is going to be increased treading a thin line when it's something like create a new album by pseudo-David Bowie. And arguably over that line when it's extending the hit debut album of a living artist who just isn't recapturing that magic.

As long as it's generating everything on past data it won't. New stuff is interesting because it doesn't sound like old stuff, and usually that takes over and further mutates. I'm not a fan of trap, but it wouldn't have existed if everything was generated by the current gen of software. It moves fast towards an optimum of the current generation, but we're not at actual AI, so I don't think what you describe will happen (at least yet).

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#123
post #76
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't believe this will happen, and unless I'm mistaken, there's absolutely 0 evidence for it. People are usually attached to the artist when it comes to music. You buy a Bowie album because it has his name on it. You learn about them, look forward to their future work, maybe go see them live, etc. Will computers replace EDM and elevator music? I don't know, maybe, who cares?

The next generations will follow pseudo-Bowie, because David Bowie is for old people. edit: I'm imagining what they would say. I'm not here to offend Bowie fans.

Honestly Bowie already seemed like an "old person" act when I became a fan in the '80s. When Live Aid happened in 1985, a popular take was that it was a bunch of old has-beens trying to revive their careers. Eg. Bowie, McCartney, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Elton John.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#124

Being a musician and audio engineer right now for 30 years, I see all this and I simply shake my head. I've long given up the hopes of monetary success for my music. One thing that remains is the energy exchange between an artist and the audience in a live setting. If you love music and you are not an emotional robot you know what I am talking about. Software can't replicate that and the artistry in the performer kno…

Pop music’s doing great. Just not the mainstream stuff, as usual.

What is "pop" if it's not popular?

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Digital is cold and thin compared to analog. Claude Shannon emphatically disagrees. When sampling at twice the highest audible frequency they are mathematically equivalent.

Not quite - Nyquist-Shannon's theorem states the original signal can be reconstructed, but it usually isn't in reproduction. Digital playback does not reproduce the full original signal - it plays it back on whatever output device it has, which does not generally recreate the original waveform. That theorem also has some technical constraints that actual noise does not match, such as band limited and Fourier transfor…

Nothing reproduces the original signal, it's distorted by the inertia and impedance of the microphone and amplifier that recorded it.

As you know it's then passed through an ADC and stored as a sine wave, cause no one is mastering inaudible square waves on a reel for kitsch value.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#126

Great article, and eye-opening. Related tangent: VCs are trending in the same direction. Even YC increasingly wants to “see more” all the time before funding. That’s what they tell founders who are rejected in the interview phase. Come back with users, revenue — proof of a market. The more traction, the higher the chances you’ll get in next time. Simultaneously, the more traction you have, the less incentive to give…

I think the larger and larger costs means they they don't want to take on unnecessary risks. The expectation of return is higher than ever, thus, as VC managing other people's money, they have no choice but to comply. Fund what already has an a market and traction.

So, like you said, VC are digging their own grave, but I reckon they know it and can't do a damned thing about it.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pop music’s doing great. Just not the mainstream stuff, as usual.

What is "pop" if it's not popular?

It’s a musical genre, a sound, it has many definitions depending on context. It isn’t just a literal abbreviation of the word “popular”, not since about the 1950s anyway.

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Digital is cold and thin compared to analog. Claude Shannon emphatically disagrees. When sampling at twice the highest audible frequency they are mathematically equivalent.

Not quite - Nyquist-Shannon's theorem states the original signal can be reconstructed, but it usually isn't in reproduction. Digital playback does not reproduce the full original signal - it plays it back on whatever output device it has, which does not generally recreate the original waveform. That theorem also has some technical constraints that actual noise does not match, such as band limited and Fourier transfor…

Not this again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

Re: Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is called TikTok

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite - Nyquist-Shannon's theorem states the original signal can be reconstructed, but it usually isn't in reproduction. Digital playback does not reproduce the full original signal - it plays it back on whatever output device it has, which does not generally recreate the original waveform. That theorem also has some technical constraints that actual noise does not match, such as band limited and Fourier transfor…

Nothing reproduces the original signal, it's distorted by the inertia and impedance of the microphone and amplifier that recorded it. As you know it's then passed through an ADC and stored as a sine wave, cause no one is mastering inaudible square waves on a reel for kitsch value.

Agreed - and after quantization nothing reproduces the signal before quantization. So claiming Nyquist-Shannon proves the OP wrong is incorrect.

>It's then passed through an ADC and stored as a sine wave.

After an ADC it is not stored as a sine wave. It's stored as quantized values, thus the 'D' in Analog-to-Digital-Converter.

>cause no one is mastering inaudible square waves on a reel for kitsch value

Pretty much all audio processing is now done digitally, which is the same as square waves - each jump in discrete digital value is a step function. When you push it through properly engineered output devices the squareness is smoothed somewhat, but still has frequency ringing because it is square edged.

Take a good speaker, take something that can grab audio spectrum far beyond audible, and look at the output. There is stuff far outside human hearing coming from the speaker because of these square waves. Naively, this is because the Fourier transform of the square waves have high frequency ringing, and this is because the playback has sharp edges. (See this [1] for some related info for example).

Also Nyquist-Shannon is about frequencies, not about amplitudes, which are also quantized. Physical devices making sound have a (up to quantum level) continuum of possible amplitudes. Quantization necessarily loses this forever. For example, take A0, the lowest standard piano note, freq ~27.5. Sample a pure sine wave at 60 hz, in 8 bit audio. Now record this tone going from no sound up to very loud, very smoothly, over some time. The 8-bit audio will necessarily have less smoothness to it, since it is 8 bit audio. It perfectly matched your Nyquist-Shannon claim, yet it fails to reproduce what you hear. Take 16 bit audio - better. Take 32-bit or floating point audio, better again. And so on.

I agree that really well engineered systems can push the errors outside human hearing, but to claim they reproduce the same signals is incorrect.

The gist of this is: to get the most accurate reproduction of the original, merely sampling at 2x the top human freq is no where near state of the art.

An counter-intuitive example: to get the best quality and most accurate output, one needs to add noise to the input. The reason is that due to quantization, if some input signal is between possible quantized output values, adding noise (usually Gaussian, of std dev ~sqrt(step size)) makes that signal trigger both high and low quantized values in proportion to the intermediate value, making the output playback the step square waves as close to approximating the original as possible. The entire field is full of stuff like this.

For reference, I've worked on stuff like this on and off for decades, having written libraries used by others, designed high end audio simulation software (think raytracer for audio in physical settings to help design stadiums), written articles, and produced hardware in a company I own. I am quite familiar with all sorts of audio processing.

[1] https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/156197/can-c...

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