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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#801

Related, Washington Post previously published an anonymous open letter from Dalit women in 2020 in the wake of Cisco being sued for caste discrimination: https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/a-statement-on-caste-... One of the most interesting things that stood out to me from this letter and that lawsuit was the assertion by those affected that discrimination on the basis of caste was more impactful and more severe…

> Our work is seen and evaluated on merit

This line of arguments will not work with the sensibilities of the priestly caste not native to India.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#802
post #776

I’m a white Australian and am in my last few weeks of a decade long stint in a large company, caste discrimination is certainly not the only discrimination in Australia, but it is the most overt explicit discrimination that I see every week. We have laws and company policies on other forms of discrimination, but the predominantly white corporate culture hasn’t figured out how to talk about caste discrimination withou…

> but it is the most overt explicit discrimination that I see every week. Could you give some examples?

Yes, Two employees hired via an Indian recruiting firm were not paid wages they were legally entitled to, that my company was paying for, and threatened with cancellation of their visas and legal action in India if they reported the underpayment. In one case my colleague agreed to pay back his last three months wages when he quit to the recruiting firm, not to my company that had already paid the wages. He wasn’t contractually obliged to do this it was just bullying. (He had also not been paid superannuation for three years) Other Indian workers were bullied to secretly to work for other clients and phone in sick. (Australian workers get paid sick leave) others were regularly required to write fake resumes for candidates applying to work at my company and coach candidates on their fake work history. These are the explicit extreme examples, the mistreatment an dismissive behavior towards Indian women and my Tamil colleagues is unpleasant but more subtle, one female Sri Lankan colleague deliberately adopted an Australian accent to be accepted by some of our Indian male colleagues.

In all of these cases the managers responsible were higher caste than the workers, who accepted the mistreatment despite Australian law being strongly on their side.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#803
post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's mostly fear. I blame my lack of coffee at the time and my non-English mother tongue :) Though the line between fear and hate is quite thin and blurry in human psychology. The arachnophobes I know do, in fact, hate spiders with a passion.

I was making a comment about the trend in general. Some native speakers also agree with your definition. > Though the line between fear and hate is quite thin and blurry in human psychology. In some instances it may be, although the word 'awe' has no sense of hatred in it. > The arachnophobes I know do, in fact, hate spiders with a passion. Okay, well how about snakes? I'm afraid of them but I don't think anybody is…

> although the word 'awe' has no sense of hatred in it.

Awful has some meanings that are close

https://www.etymonline.com/word/awful

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it were that easy. First of all lying like that is near impossible unless you know every single thing done in a Brahmin household, you'll be caught eventually. In a workplace setting, you might be boycotted but if this were in India, you have a high chance of getting murdered brutally. Dalits get killed for just riding a horse, walking through upper caste residential streets and many normal things. In this sca…

Murdered by which caste? Allegedly of course. Brahmin or somebody else?

Great question. It will be any upper caste who are above Dalits. There is no one perpetrator here but all of them. The main point to note is that the caste hierarchy is sacred and will be enforced by endogamy (arranged marriages) and other occupational rules.

You will be shown your place very very quickly. Love marriages are quite deadly and parents killing their own children and the lower caste grooms are extremely common. You can search for "honour killings in India".

Please read "Annihilation of Caste" by Dr. B.R. Ambedkar. Its around 50 pages of an undelivered speech, later published.

If you want to learn about caste, please make sure not to ask for explanations from an upper caste person. This is extremely important!!

Example of this enforcement: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-15997648

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#805
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it were that easy. First of all lying like that is near impossible unless you know every single thing done in a Brahmin household, you'll be caught eventually. In a workplace setting, you might be boycotted but if this were in India, you have a high chance of getting murdered brutally. Dalits get killed for just riding a horse, walking through upper caste residential streets and many normal things. In this sca…

The claims made in this post are in dire need of citations, and don't strike me as believable. And just FWIW, most first-generation Indians in America couldn't give two shits about the caste system.

Well, we are in the comments for an article which exactly disproves your point. You say Indians don't care about caste but I want to see some intercaste Indian couples and Indians without caste surnames among your "first-generation" Indian Americans.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty easy to find out. There are identifiers from the name to the dialect one speaks, what you eat etc

Can you go into more detail about the food thing? How would I as a non-Indian identify someone's caste from their food preference?

Almost all upper castes are vegetarians. Brahmins definitely will be vegetarians. There will be exceptions for first generation immigrant kids I suppose.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Non-white groups lag in almost all economic categories. Why are the data for Asian people not shown on those graphs? It only lists Black, Hispanic, and White. Is it because (at least according to the stats on Wikipedia[0], sourced from the US Census) they don't reinforce that narrative? In fact, according to that data, the median white income is ~$66K, which is surpassed by Ghanaians (~$69K), South Africans (~$98K),…

The data for asian americans isn't shown on that graph because the underlying data used for the graph groups people into white, black, hispanic, and other. I apologize for saying "non-white" when I really meant "black and/or hispanic". Yes, there are some ethnic groups that have higher median incomes, but that doesn't mean there isn't a racial disparity in america. The fact of the matter is that african americans, as…

>On the other hand, if one accepts that this is not due to any inherent racial trait, then one has to look at American culture and history with an open mind and try to understand how it came to be that way

Absolutely. My disagreement comes from the presented false dichotomy of the explanation being either racial inferiority - which neither of us believe - or ongoing systemic discrimination which (in my view) can only explain some of the problem. Further, I think that over-reliance on it as an explanation blinds its advocates to other possible causes and therefore other solutions.

Let's take a toy example for simplicity; a game of Monopoly. Systemic economic discrimination would take the form, perhaps, of one player having favorable rules; they get to reroll their dice, or get more money from passing Go!. Clearly unfair, and the solution would be obvious; equalize the rules. However, there are other ways the game can be tilted. If one player starts with more money, i.e. benefits from historical wealth, then they are likely to do win more often. This historical economic oppression is not the same as systemic discrimination - the rules affecting each player can be identical once the game actually begins - and requires different interventions to resolve.

I recall reading some time ago that immigrants to America from African nations tend to do better than the background African-American population, despite often coming with even less than a typical African-American family would have. One would expect them to experience just as much systemic discrimination, and they are just as impoverished as those who have experienced historical economic oppression, so that also does not seem to explain things fully. We can then turn to matters of culture and environment. If one of the players in the hypothetical Monopoly game pursues a non-optimal strategy (by refusing to buy real estate[0] for example) then they are likely to lose even with equal rules and starting assets.

The cultural explanation also helps understand why the Japanese, literally interned as prisoners en masse during World War II, and the Chinese, imported in their thousands as low-wage labor to build the railroads and both banned from owning property until 1952 [1], were able to bounce back into two of the most wealthy population segments in the country. Strong social cohesion and an understanding of long-term beneficial life strategies both help oppressed minorities overcome their situations. This is entirely independent of discrimination, which is why it is so frustrating to see, for example, no less a source than the National Museum of African American History and Culture [2] label traits like "objective thinking," "hard work being the key to success," and "delayed gratification" as aspects of white culture, and therefore alien.

Let's take another example - crime statistics. The "classic" systemic discrimination explanation of higher numbers of black people being incarcerated denies that actual crimes committed are higher and statistics showing that they are is a symptom of racist police forces and justice systems. To solve it, we need police and prison reform, racial sensitivity training, etc. The historical economic oppression explanation instead concedes that yes, black communities tend to have higher crime, but that is because of fewer opportunities available and recommends investment into education, reform of certification and some financial laws to make it easier for small black businesses to get started, and stronger investment into infrastructure to make it easier and safer for the population of inner city communities to access the job market. The cultural explanation also concedes that there is more crime there, and that black people have the power to solve that amongst themselves, by cooperating and developing stronger social norms that discourage violence. In one remarkable example, such an effort gave birth to hip-hop culture [3]!

Each explanation points at part of the problem; I hope you'll agree now that labelling only one as correct and sufficient, and saying that everyone who disagrees with it can only explain the problem through racism is non-productive. Even if the cultural and historical explanations are rooted in systemic discrimination of the past, they demand different solutions in the present to resolve, just as making a playing field even after one player has already accrued a significan advantage would not lead to a fair game.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8 (NSFW, explicit visuals and lyrics) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Alien_Land_Law_of_1... [2]: https://archive.is/gyYNs [3]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-23/disruptin...

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid there is none. Also its better if people from the west do not try to draw parallels with their experiences and culture. It simply doesn't match. This would help you understand the caste system and once you do, you would literally see it in any place where Indians live/work. The revelations would be mind boggling for sure. For ex, if there are a bunch of Indians in a work place and a few of them are from lo…

I don't buy this...even if white people don't understand caste, they would still understand random team members not being invited to group events and perhaps try to find out why it happened that way.

Dont buy it from me. Read the "How Dalits are ‘vetted’ for work" section in this https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-caste-discrimination-silicon-...

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#809

I don’t know what to say about this, but the ultra-nationalists in India are the one people I fear might one day get triggered and murder millions.

In the same manner as the Europeans have already done repeatedly in history?

My statement was on the present and in no way an easy-vs-west value judgement. Everyone knows that the European colonialism and the ongoing neocolonialist story are pure evil.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murdered by which caste? Allegedly of course. Brahmin or somebody else?

Great question. It will be any upper caste who are above Dalits. There is no one perpetrator here but all of them. The main point to note is that the caste hierarchy is sacred and will be enforced by endogamy (arranged marriages) and other occupational rules. You will be shown your place very very quickly. Love marriages are quite deadly and parents killing their own children and the lower caste grooms are extremely…

Ambedkar said similar things to muslims as well, you can stop hating on Hindus. Hinduism does not condone honour killings, it’s a cultural thing. The amount of hate and comments from you is appalling, while everything you say is not wrong but please be civil.
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