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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#781

Post by senthil_rajasek »

xadhix wrote: post #761
senthil_rajasek wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sacred thread is exclusive to Brahmins and a distinct caste marker. Non-Brahmin Hindus are not allowed to wear the sacred thread. Turbans and burqa do not have such intra-religious restriction. Comparing the sacred thread to turbans/ burqas is a false comparison.

Wanted to correct one part of what you said: The thread is not exclusive to Brahmins[1] I know people who identify as Kshatriyas and Vaisyas wear it. It is just that almost all brahmins do it and the practice has reduced or stopped in the other two varnas. And from what I see, he didn't compare the thread to burqas. He compared the calling of the thread as sign of discrimination to calling the turban as a sign of ter…

OP said, "I wear the thread the same reason a Sikh wears a turban or a Muslim woman wears a niqab/burka."

That's the comparison.

>know people who identify as Kshatriyas and Vaisyas wear it

I know but all Brahmins wear the sacred thread.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#782

Post by rajup »

ordu wrote: post #779
rajup wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter what reasons you have. What matters is the consequence of your behavior, namely, it is visible difference between castes, which makes discrimination easier and avoiding discrimination harder. Not unless I go running around naked > And your comment show that you are not concerned in a slightest about discrimination. Tradition is more important to you than people. How exactly do you infer that? You…

> How exactly do you infer that? 1. You show that you care about tradition. And you show not a slightest attempt to care about people. Words reflect mind. Not perfectly, but there is one more consideration: 2. I heard a lot from privileged. I said some of that talk myself, and I know how mind must work to say it. I changed myself and rejected my priviledge, my mind works in different ways. I do not belive my reasons…

> You show that you care about tradition.

“Caring” about tradition (whatever that means) is equivalent to being complicit in social ills. Ok got it.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#783

Post by rajup »

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #781
xadhix wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanted to correct one part of what you said: The thread is not exclusive to Brahmins[1] I know people who identify as Kshatriyas and Vaisyas wear it. It is just that almost all brahmins do it and the practice has reduced or stopped in the other two varnas. And from what I see, he didn't compare the thread to burqas. He compared the calling of the thread as sign of discrimination to calling the turban as a sign of ter…

OP said, "I wear the thread the same reason a Sikh wears a turban or a Muslim woman wears a niqab/burka." That's the comparison. >know people who identify as Kshatriyas and Vaisyas wear it I know but all Brahmins wear the sacred thread.

> I know but all Brahmins wear the sacred thread.

False. I may have only anecdotal evidence, but even one counter-example renders your statement incorrect.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#784

Post by josephg »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #694
josephg wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systems of social class and caste systems aren't the same - but they're definitely related. Subtle bias against the lower classes is absolutely alive and well in the west. We just don't talk about it, or consciously notice it a lot of the time. People who grew up in poor areas, or who didn't go to good schools just "don't seem like one of us" or fail "culture fit" interviews.

They are related in that they are both possible forms of discrimination. The spectrum runs from chattel race slavery to ugly people getting laid less. Social class objectively exists, but I think it is disingenuous to say class bias has an impact anywhere close to that of the caste system on life outcomes, or deterministically dictates economic outcomes. There is a loose correlation between class and outcomes, but th…

Whoa - I was with you up until that last sentence.

> There is a loose correlation between class and outcomes,

My understanding is that the correlation is very strong.

> but this also includes perfectly logical factors like better educational attainment, parental nurturing, support, crime, and drug use.

The right question is about social mobility. If you're born in a poor family, what is the chance that you'll escape poverty yourself? The numbers are pretty damning. In the USA today, a child in the bottom 20% of the income distribution only has a 7% chance to ever reach the top 20% of the income distribution. Poor people stay uneducated and poor.

And yes, its for "logical" reasons like crime, nurturing, etc. But that doesn't make it fair or right. From a purely selfish perspective, if tomorrow's Einstein is born poor in america today, its very unlikely they will ever be able to make use of their talent to aid the world.

Caste systems teach people that this lack of social mobility should be preserved - and thats abhorrent. But if we look at outcomes rather than beliefs, it doesn't really matter why people from poor families are prevented from reaching their potential. Its in all of our best interest to fight that battle.

The economist put out a great primer video on this a few months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1FdIvLg6i4

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#786

Post by dusklight »

rusticpenn wrote: post #467
swayvil wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you just lie and tell everybody that you're brahmin (or whatever the alpha caste is)? Do you need identifying papers? Is there a big market for forgeries?

It’s pretty easy to find out. There are identifiers from the name to the dialect one speaks, what you eat etc

Can you go into more detail about the food thing? How would I as a non-Indian identify someone's caste from their food preference?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#787

Post by hirako2000 »

bgdam wrote: post #224
hirako2000 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rather you to work on the explaining there. Pichai isn't claiming to be unaware of how caste politics may work. I think it's not only OK but desirable for companies to stop ruining the workplace with societal politics. There is a law and public debates for castes and how to address the (no doubt existing even outside India) problem. Prompting an employee of a tech company, even its CEO, reminding the audience of…

> There is a law and public debates for castes and how to address the (no doubt existing even outside India) problem. That's kinda part of the problem. In India there are laws dealing with caste based oppression and discrimination (how well they are enforced is another story). But in most other countries such laws do not exist. And caste-based discrimination is exceptionally easily and silently accomplished because f…

That's right, in the West at wide they roll up to anti discrimination laws, agreed they probably don't tackle the very specific problem castes pose, I would much rather have anti discrimination encompass them in a more generic form to tackle all forms of discrimination based on "classes" than making it an indian caste problem. I fail to see how the unambiguous distinction in names makes the problem solving any easier, it isn't only about identification, and if that identification is used to implement quotas or whatnot, since that's how companies then read the law, it will 1/ create a new problem, 2/ suddenly see a lot of people change their name for "business" purposes.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#788

Post by cuteboy19 »

sreevisakh wrote: post #699
cuteboy19 wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unthinkable in any IIT/NIT in India. I think casteism is somewhat worse in the US

Either that is lack of awareness or a misrepresentation. Please have a look at this: https://theprint.in/opinion/brahmins-on-india-campuses-study... . There were lots of anecdotes about this going around. But it's documented news these days.

I would know if I were being discriminated against

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#789

Post by known »

roflyear wrote: post #712
qorrect wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you witness?

Personally, I've witnessed issues with the Indian caste system in many large corporations. From Johnson & Johnson - where there is actually a development team - where they hired other Indians who were horribly unqualified (multiple times they were poached from IT support - I enjoy seeing people move up in tech, but they were entry level techs with no programming experience) and almost exclusively hired other Indians…

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