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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#711

Post by whoevercares »

eternalban wrote: post #707
sreevisakh wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If Hindus migrate to other regions on earth, Indian caste would become a world problem." - Dr. B R Ambedkar said this in 1916 [1]. The surprising incident in US was predicted more than a century ago. For more context, Dr. B R Ambedkar was the main architect of the constitution of India. He also formulated the affirmative action for Dalit representation, called the reservation system. He was one of the so called Dali…

> The surprising incident in US was predicted more than a century ago. That's my question: was this in US? Because in US if anyone pulls that kind of shit you head straight to the dean's office and address the problem. 2 years sleeping on a couch because of your roommate's conceit? It boggles the mind.

It is indeed US. Well for some reason the guy did not complain. I might exaggerate it a bit - the guy slept elsewhere as well but in this very dormitory he only slept in bedroom when the other guy is not home

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#712

Post by roflyear »

qorrect wrote: post #587
tristor wrote: post #347

Related, Washington Post previously published an anonymous open letter from Dalit women in 2020 in the wake of Cisco being sued for caste discrimination: https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/a-statement-on-caste-... One of the most interesting things that stood out to me from this letter and that lawsuit was the assertion by those affected that discrimination on the basis of caste was more impactful and more severe…

What did you witness?

Personally, I've witnessed issues with the Indian caste system in many large corporations. From Johnson & Johnson - where there is actually a development team - where they hired other Indians who were horribly unqualified (multiple times they were poached from IT support - I enjoy seeing people move up in tech, but they were entry level techs with no programming experience) and almost exclusively hired other Indians to a larger tech firm in the US (where I am now) that is not Google or Cisco.

I've also seen this in smaller companies and startups, but there it is usually the Indian CTO or manager hiring an Indian contracting company, where big surprise, there is some prior relationship. I haven't ever had these arrangements work out.

I have nothing against Indian people - but this is an issue in tech, and I feel like it is becoming a larger issue.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#713

Post by JCharante »

rusticpenn wrote: post #467
swayvil wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you just lie and tell everybody that you're brahmin (or whatever the alpha caste is)? Do you need identifying papers? Is there a big market for forgeries?

It’s pretty easy to find out. There are identifiers from the name to the dialect one speaks, what you eat etc

> what you eat etc

This may sound uneducated, but do Indians in the US only eat Indian food? How would someone know if you rotate through different cuisines every day?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#714

Post by [deleted] »

hef19898 wrote: post #314
mountainriver wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I worked at vmw and they have a huge caste/sexism problem. Funny how liberal Americans stand by and let it happen

Because for us Westerners this form of discrimination is, well, invisible. It is based on subtle things we don't see. It stays within a group, that to us, seems completely homogenous. Plus, how many Westerners actually are aware the Indian caste system exists at all? men discriminating and harrassing women? Sexism, check. White discriminating people of color? Racism, check. One Indian being a dick to another Indian?…

[deleted]

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#715

Post by morlpo »

Levitz wrote: post #658
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caste is a great illustration of how arbitrary racial identities are.

At which point is this about race? Isn't this more like knighthood in the olden times?

The point where caste defines purity. Classism is a separate axis from the notion of religious purity that is a fundamental part of caste (which is effectively an amalgamation of the two). As such, the closest "reference point" for a U.S. citizen is the attitudes held by antebellum slaveowners regarding race. You can't comprehend the sort of...emotions that inspire the strict anti-miscegenation of racism or caste-ism, from a lens of "knighthood in the olden times".

Nevermind that one can be "knighted" - the idea that one could be "brahminated" is no different from thinking one could be "whited" in the antebellum south. (And no, the "honorary whiteness" given to certain asian ethnicities is not akin to "whiting" - it's merely defining a subdivision of a caste to be slightly higher than the other lower castes)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#716

Post by HKH2 »

kergonath wrote: post #456
HKH2 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when does '-phobia' mean 'hatred'? If I suffer from arachnophobia, do I hate spiders?

Yeah, it's mostly fear. I blame my lack of coffee at the time and my non-English mother tongue :) Though the line between fear and hate is quite thin and blurry in human psychology. The arachnophobes I know do, in fact, hate spiders with a passion.

I was making a comment about the trend in general. Some native speakers also agree with your definition.

> Though the line between fear and hate is quite thin and blurry in human psychology.

In some instances it may be, although the word 'awe' has no sense of hatred in it.

> The arachnophobes I know do, in fact, hate spiders with a passion.

Okay, well how about snakes? I'm afraid of them but I don't think anybody is disgusted by them.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#717

Post by _carbyau_ »

hef19898 wrote: post #314
mountainriver wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I worked at vmw and they have a huge caste/sexism problem. Funny how liberal Americans stand by and let it happen

Because for us Westerners this form of discrimination is, well, invisible. It is based on subtle things we don't see. It stays within a group, that to us, seems completely homogenous. Plus, how many Westerners actually are aware the Indian caste system exists at all? men discriminating and harrassing women? Sexism, check. White discriminating people of color? Racism, check. One Indian being a dick to another Indian?…

I had another comment but deleted it.

Effectively, the idea was "Don't be a dick." That is a reason right there where a person can intervene if they are in a position to do so. However, the issue as you raise it is that this is not a law.

There are laws about sex, racism etc that can help people in low power situations exercise some power. But we don't have that equivalent knowledge/ability regarding caste.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#718

Post by _carbyau_ »

vijaybritto wrote: post #361
sitkack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just caste discrimination, but also sexism. I have worked at least three companies where if there were Indian women, the vast majority were in QA.

Interesting fact: Talk to Indian upper caste women who claim to be feminists about caste; you'll be shut down quickly. I have had countless arguments only to be named "mansplainer". The activism from powerful groups will flow in the same social structure which does not affect their power.

Hell, I have had conversations with my immigrant mother-in-law where she complains later immigrants hang out only with each other, only speak their own language and should be deported.

In her own language. Just after she's asked us to take her to her ethnic group gathering that is pretty much her only social outing...

Hypocrisy has many shades and people compartmentalise attitudes with issues.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#719

Post by thunkshift1 »

ethanbond wrote: post #514
devnull3 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. In fact attrocities on brahmins is rarely discussed [1]. Infact his state TamilNadu there is a strong anti-brahminism sentiment in political sphere. This is one of the reason why lot of upper-caste men/women go outside India. [1] https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/the-brahmin-files-why-atro...

Doesn’t excuse any discriminatory behavior here in the States. Or, frankly, even in India.

Don’t assume guilt based on association or membership to a class. Thats a form of discrimination too. Pichai is brahmin so he has some explanation to do—> no he doesnt. Its like asking any white man to explain why us cops are killing black folks.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#720

Post by noduerme »

hahaxdxd123 wrote: post #631
noduerme wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Educating people like me about that would suddenly create the ability for them to identify a difference that they wouldn't have noticed before. This seemingly small insight goes miles toward explaining the current American obsession with racial and gender identity. Gender/racial/age discrimination are not surface-level obvious in America these days, which is why once people are told they're being victimized and di…

> Gender/racial/age discrimination are not surface-level obvious in America these days Yeah yea, tell that to the people who "ching chong" me whenever I leave the liberal coasts. Incredible how you people paint one of America's greatest strengths, one that few other countries possess - the willingness to speak about racial problems and create a real _home_ for talented immigrants - as a bad thing. There's a reason pe…

I've experienced (and still experience) plenty of racist jokes, and some very not-well-meaning diatribes in my travels. I've been told point blank by a girl that her father would kill her and me if she brought me home.

Is it upsetting sometimes? Sure. But it only shows certain people's ignorance. It's not my identity.

Let me try to show my perspective. I come from a culture that is painfully aware of its minority status and a long history of extreme violence directed against it. I believe that the story of our persecution is valuable insofar as it makes us tolerant of others. But I have always believed that the factions in my own ethnic group who use victimhood to explain failures or to bolster their personal identity are committing what might be called "stolen valor". And that it in fact not only reflects negatively on the group, but is deeply corrosive to an individual over time, to frame one's understanding of interactions with the other groups in that way.

In short, even if it's absolutely true, it's a crutch. And when you want to see it everywhere, you can.

There's a blessing in being born different, or in a minority. It makes it easier to separate good people from assholes.

The discussion of racist history and racial integration is extremely important in America. But it's ill served by allowing race to be a marker for our individual identity, or to project an assumption of identity on other people. My people came here to get away from that and, even with discrimination, even being hated by some, to succeed on their personal hard work and their individual merits. Let the haters hate. Be bigger and don't let them define you.

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