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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#671

Post by sdenton4 »

colechristensen wrote: post #662
retrac wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's touches of that elsewhere too (hiding race or ethnicity with a name change.) I have an extremely unusual surname in Canada, and most North Americans don't recognize it as European in origin, which has led to assumptions in the past. My grandfather said he considered changing it to something English in the 50s, but ultimately he kept it. I know that, at least historically, some Christian Arabs, Jewish people,…

Quite a few essentially had Americanized (or for Canada... idk, Canadized? Anglicized? somebody tell me the best word for that :) ) names forced on them upon immigration. My mother's ancestral Norwegian last name wouldn't have worked particularly well in English, my own last name of Danish origin survived unscathed for obvious reasons.

Depending on the region of Canada, I would say 'anglicized' or 'French-fried.'

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#672

Post by sreevisakh »

gomoboo wrote: post #534
akavi wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

Isn’t this just relying on security through obscurity? The knowledge is already out there for anyone wishing to seek it. Why pretend it doesn’t exist? For what it’s worth, I am not of Indian descent.

It's more like insecurity through obscurity. Caste discrimination among educated circles is viciously covert. You may not know your caste or your colleague's caste. But the ones who are interested will definitely know it and discriminate on its basis. The discrimination and harassment will make no sense to you, unless something or someone tips you off. It's not like discrimination based on color or gender, where the difference is immediately apparent. You can't distinguish people of various castes unless you go actively looking for it. It's better to be aware of possible avenues of exploitation than be negligent and vulnerable to it.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#673

Post by sizzle »

Genuine question, what is stopping you from identifying as another caste in 2022 with the mass adoption of the concept of identifying with different genders?

Just like being assigned a sex of Male or Female at birth, those who don’t want to associate can identify with another gender identity or even transition their bodies to whatever sex they please.

I don’t buy the notion that once a Dalit by birth you are destined to a lifetime of suffering, especially if you made it to FAANG in the USA, you won the lottery are in the top 1% of Dalits that are in the cohort of successful, wealthy, educated technologists who can break down the walls of caste identification back home. With the protection of civil rights laws and freedom of religion in the USA, you can use your money and influence to start a movement that breaks the chains of caste identity for the oppressed community back home.

I know the college youth in Delhi are very progressive and champion Women’s rights and protesting as a movement emerged when the horrific rape trials were brought to global attention. Maybe tap into this educated youth cohort to be the change for future generations to come and break caste identity at a conceptual level.

Money and freedom in another powerful country = power and influence to change the narrative back home as a symbol and poster child of Dalit role models changing the world.

Sorry I’m rambling, but if you made it to FAANG and aren’t paying it forward to your oppressed communities back home, then is your inaction to take a stand against Caste discrimination benefiting your oppressors because the top 1% of Dalits who can affect change left India as part of the brain drain of skilled individuals trying to make a better life for themselves abroad?

Let casteism die with the older generations, start a movement with the youth to turn the tides in favor of fluid caste identity until it is no longer relevant conceptually.

Someone please help me articulate this stream of consciousness into a single concise paragraph that is actionable. Thanks for listening, I would love to help in any way I can.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#674

Post by [deleted] »

dang wrote: post #468

Related threads - others? Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30515099 - March 2022 (543 comments) India’s tech sector reinforces old caste divides - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29994226 - Jan 2022 (5 comments) The Casteism I See in America and American Tech Companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29133517 - Nov 2021 (5 comments) How Big Tech Is Imp…

[deleted]

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#675

Post by sreevisakh »

Vaslo wrote: post #65

Question from a layman. How does one know that someone is from another caste? If I was someone from India, how would I know what caste my fellow Indian is from? Is there some kind of code? Or where you are from?

It varies from place to place. For example, people are segregated by caste in many places. In other cases, it's easy to identify from surname. But there is one method that you should be aware of - it's more relevant to silicon valley. There are a lot of cases where it's not immediately possible to distinguish caste from name or looks. People from all castes look more or less similar. In such cases, the caste believers would do covert background research. That might be from your social media profile, public and political connections or even professional service records. There are also cases where they make the determination based on subtle differences in traditions (like marriage ceremonies or celebrations, clothing styles etc). And then there are some obnoxious methods like patting someone on their back to see if they wear a 'sacred thread' under their shirt.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#676

Post by sizzle »

moab wrote: post #560
vijaybritto wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it were that easy. First of all lying like that is near impossible unless you know every single thing done in a Brahmin household, you'll be caught eventually. In a workplace setting, you might be boycotted but if this were in India, you have a high chance of getting murdered brutally. Dalits get killed for just riding a horse, walking through upper caste residential streets and many normal things. In this sca…

The claims made in this post are in dire need of citations, and don't strike me as believable. And just FWIW, most first-generation Indians in America couldn't give two shits about the caste system.

Highly agree on your second point, many first generation born south Asians I work for or work with that grew up within the suburbs couldn’t care less caste and simply don’t relate or identify with their parent’s generation and caste affiliation, they just want to be seen as American and are treated as such.

Only older heads who immigrated here are the lions share of individuals perpetuating this caste based discrimination. Please state your sources if you disagree with my assessment of first generation born Americans of South Asian descent working in big tech and Silicon Valley.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#677

Post by tonguez »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #136
lolinder wrote: post #15

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

> every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism Is there a term for shutting down a discussion by turning the belligerence to eleven? Such that people outside the discussion tune out not the views of those being belligerent, but the discussion itself?

belligerence is a bourgeois and pearl-clutchy way to dismiss desperate people writing text on the internet as a part of their struggle to improve the horrible material conditions of their lives and the lives of the people they love. it’s easy to be sophisticated when everyone else is effectively your slave because you happened to be born higher up in the global supply chain. belligerent is how Marie Antoinette would have described people who don’t want to want to be told to eat cake.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#678

Post by ip26 »

sizzle wrote: post #673

Genuine question, what is stopping you from identifying as another caste in 2022 with the mass adoption of the concept of identifying with different genders? Just like being assigned a sex of Male or Female at birth, those who don’t want to associate can identify with another gender identity or even transition their bodies to whatever sex they please. I don’t buy the notion that once a Dalit by birth you are destined…

Imagine trying to identify as a midwesterner except you secretly grew up in Canada. Sooner or later someone is going to figure it out, eh?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#679

Post by civilized »

Hmm...

> To Soundararajan, Google was long overdue for a conversation on caste equity. Pichai, the CEO, “is Indian and he is Brahmin and he grew up in Tamil Nadu. There is no way you grow up in Tamil Nadu and not know about caste because of how caste politics shaped the conversation,” Soundararajan told The Post. “If he can make passionate statements about Google’s [diversity equity and inclusion] commitments in the wake of George Floyd, he absolutely should be making those same commitments to the context he comes from where he is someone of privilege.”

> Soundararajan said Pichai has not responded to letter she sent him in April. Google declined to comment.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#680

Post by gadflyinyoureye »

ip26 wrote: post #678
sizzle wrote: post #673

Genuine question, what is stopping you from identifying as another caste in 2022 with the mass adoption of the concept of identifying with different genders? Just like being assigned a sex of Male or Female at birth, those who don’t want to associate can identify with another gender identity or even transition their bodies to whatever sex they please. I don’t buy the notion that once a Dalit by birth you are destined…

Imagine trying to identify as a midwesterner except you secretly grew up in Canada. Sooner or later someone is going to figure it out, eh?

It seems like the better choice is to claim that you're Minnesotan. Then after generations work your family down so they can fake being a Hoosier.
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