Google cancelled a talk on caste bias • Hacker News Board

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#661

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:09 AM UTC

rajup wrote: post #656

devnonymous wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that there are other 'cues' as well that casteists use to identify your caste, such as the food you eat (veg/non-veg), the social rituals/ceremonies or religious practices you engage in. In fact, you'd see enough Brahmins (in the US!) wear the scared thread[1] and embrace the entire identity of being at the 'top' of the caste system that knowing that you are a non-brahmin is sufficient for them to treat you as a…

Wrong, I wear the thread the same reason a Sikh wears a turban or a Muslim woman wears a niqab/burka. Wearing a sacred thread has about as much relation to condoning/accepting caste discrimination as wearing a niqab has to terrorism, but these kinds of bigoted ignorant comments are exactly why Google was right in not allowing the talk to happen.

Reverse caste-ism

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#662

Post by colechristensen » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:10 AM UTC

retrac wrote: post #412

devnonymous wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were born outside of India, it would be pretty much like any other national /racial identity -- inferred from family (based on family names for instance). Like mentioned in the GPs write-up: > Unlike race, it’s easier to hide your caste, especially in a new country. Many dalits change their official last name to something common enough that it’s hard to identify them.

There's touches of that elsewhere too (hiding race or ethnicity with a name change.) I have an extremely unusual surname in Canada, and most North Americans don't recognize it as European in origin, which has led to assumptions in the past. My grandfather said he considered changing it to something English in the 50s, but ultimately he kept it. I know that, at least historically, some Christian Arabs, Jewish people,…

Quite a few essentially had Americanized (or for Canada... idk, Canadized? Anglicized? somebody tell me the best word for that :) ) names forced on them upon immigration.

My mother's ancestral Norwegian last name wouldn't have worked particularly well in English, my own last name of Danish origin survived unscathed for obvious reasons.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#663

Post by rajup » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:12 AM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #661

rajup wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong, I wear the thread the same reason a Sikh wears a turban or a Muslim woman wears a niqab/burka. Wearing a sacred thread has about as much relation to condoning/accepting caste discrimination as wearing a niqab has to terrorism, but these kinds of bigoted ignorant comments are exactly why Google was right in not allowing the talk to happen.

Reverse caste-ism

We seem to be on the path to it for sure :)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#664

Post by dataexporter » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:13 AM UTC

sashu123 wrote: post #240

sumedh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parents tell you your caste. You can also get a caste certificate from you local municipal office which helps you take advantage of some perks if you belong to a "lower" class. Generally you wont be able to figure the caste of someone but there are clues like skin color, fairer skin generally is "upper" caste, sometimes your surname also gives away your caste. Unfortunately some Indians specially from the "upper…

fair skin thing is nonsense. I'm a Tamil Brahmin (Brahmin being the highest caste) and I'm one of the darkest skinned people in India. Most of my friends are far darker than most Indians from North India. It's much easier to identify through surname (Pichai I'm pretty sure is a brahmin surname), but certain states like Tamil Nadu banned surnames for this reason. If people ask me my surname, it is T. Every government…

Well if Surnames are banned, why is the name Pichai still used? Genuinely asking. I also see tons of engineers from Tamil Nadu in the US with last names Iyer and Iyengars.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#665

Post by tthun » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:13 AM UTC

pretendscholar wrote: post #650

thelit wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re a Dalit, you’d know. As I mention in the post, membership to a caste is granted by birth. If both your parents are Dalit, you’re a Dalit too. How do others know: it’s not obvious. Dalits either change their last name to something common enough to not have any caste indicator. They’d avoid any discussion on caste. So effectively, they hide but there are some who don’t and keep their last name. Still, not eve…

Sorry if this is a sensitive topic but why don't you just say you are a brahmin/christian/muslim? How would they know?

Believe it or not .. casts are carried by Christian [0] and Muslim families converted generations ago .. upper cast by choice and forced on lower cast [1]

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asi...

[1] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/kevins-murder-...

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#666

Post by JasserInicide » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:18 AM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #508

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

The USA doesn't have a widespread problem of discriminating people based on their last names.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#667

Post by dataexporter » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:20 AM UTC

cuteboy19 wrote: post #551

whoevercares wrote: post #190

I observed it multiple times during CS graduate school. An Indian high caste classmate refused to let his roommate sleep in the same bedroom. The higher caste guy told us that his roommate is of lower caste. The other poor guy ended up very obedient and sleep in the couch for 2 years. They have a group of high caste guys and talk sht about a few fellow low caste guys in the class Eye opening.

This is unthinkable in any IIT/NIT in India. I think casteism is somewhat worse in the US

Well. I am from an NIT in India and upper caste groupism is super common there. Of course to an outsider it seems like these are guys from the same high school and same hostel hanging out, but in reality it is mostly upper caste Brahmins in those high schools as well who end up continuing their groupism and favoritism in college and beyond. The same groupism exists even today - decades later. You see the same upper caste brahmins hanging out in the US together still in their close knit groups.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#668

Post by josephg » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:24 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #558

josephg wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social mobility has been declining in the rich world since the 40s. The USA doesn’t have a formal class system, but it’s increasingly rare for people from poor families to become wealthy in modern day America. We’re right to celebrate people from humble origins climbing the social ladder. But it doesn’t happen anywhere near as often as it should.

That is not a caste system. If you want to talk about social mobility, we can talk about that as a separate topic. What does ideal social mobility look like to you? Here is a baseline for discussion: https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/~/media/images/...

Systems of social class and caste systems aren't the same - but they're definitely related.

Subtle bias against the lower classes is absolutely alive and well in the west. We just don't talk about it, or consciously notice it a lot of the time. People who grew up in poor areas, or who didn't go to good schools just "don't seem like one of us" or fail "culture fit" interviews.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#669

Post by SpaceManNabs » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:25 AM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #567

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

>Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative action system for access to education and government jobs. I've heard some pretty horrible stories about this in particular; like Brahmin kids being legally adopted into Sudra families in order to get into a reserved position at a State University, and rich kids with private tutors getting given…

> affirmative action does nothing but help members of a specific group who are already advantaged.

If you don't know any highly skilled people from disadvantaged backgrounds that benefited from some affirmative action, that says more about you and your environment than the policy. There are definitely problems where affirmative action gets exploited, but it is horribly reductionist to find the entire tool useless because of that.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#670

Post by photochemsyn » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:26 AM UTC

seoaeu wrote: post #451

photochemsyn wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd want to look at the definition of who is and who isn't a citizen, and what constitutes a nation-state. Clearly everyone in the West Bank is under the control of the Israeli state, and the same is more-or-less true of Gaza. Palestinians in these regions are not immigrants, they're citizens under any rational view of what a citizen is, and hence deserve the right to vote in Israeli national elections. A v…

Notice that you completely dodged my question. There are lots of non-citizens living in the US who cannot vote. And during the US military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan none of the people living there were granted voting rights. Hell, look at how many senators Puerto Rico and Guam get

Nobody born in the United States lacks the right to vote in U.S. elections. I don't see how that's dodging the question; clearly visitors don't have the right to vote, and immigrants have to go through a legal process to obtain citizenship to obtain the right to vote.

To be more specific, my view is that all people born in the West Bank/Gaza/Israel should have the right to vote in Israeli elections, and Palestinians outside Israel should have the same right to emigrate to Israel as New York Jews do. Some will disagree, but that's basically how the American system works, and I think it's a better system.