In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers • Hacker News Board

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#191

Post by rascul » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

i_like_apis wrote: post #125

rascul wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have spent time in jail. I've also spent time out of jail. There's just as many scumbags outside. Lots of violent and aggressive people are not in jail, and lots of good people who didn't hurt anyone are in jail. There are a whole lot of other things besides what you list that could land you in jail.

To be honest ... based on what you're saying I don't think you've really been. > There are a whole lot of other things besides what you list that could land you in jail. Incorrect. The jail population is 99% in those categories. > and lots of good people who didn't hurt anyone are in jail Also incorrect. Although, there are a lot of mentally unstable folks there, who could be considered to be a bit more innocent than…

Most people are incarcerated for the reasons you list. [0] That doesn't necessarily make them a scumbag or a bad person in my mind, without knowing more about the situation. There are plenty of examples where it's not so clear cut, here are a few:

Supposedly over 90% of convictions are from plea bargains. We'll never know how many of those people were actually innocent. CeCe McDonald may or may not be one example. [1]

Anthony Gammons, Jr. may have acted in self defense for him and his child, but he wasn't legally allowed to own a firearm so he was convicted of murder. [2]

Teenager gets 10 years for consensual sex. [3]

Kalief Browder in jail for three years without a trial. [4]

Alexander Torres wrongfully convicted for murder for 20 years. [5]

When I was in jail, the few people I talked to, were in there for cannabis possession (as was I), driving without a license, and missing a jury summons. None of that necessarily makes them bad people in my mind. Maybe they are, but it would be for other reasons I'm not aware of.

[0] https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/p19.pdf

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CeCe_McDonald

[2] https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2020/sep/15/indiana-s...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v._State

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder

[5] https://www.aol.com/news/20-years-prison-man-found-204259158...

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#192

Post by sc68cal » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #188

sc68cal wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Municipalities already vote to put people in charge, who then negotiate the contracts. However, the police unions are very good at negotiating a contract that gives them the maximal amount of latitude that they can negotiate. Which is fine, but when the Democratic party _and_ the Republican party run candidates who do not push back against police unions (primarily because the police unions fundraise for them), how do…

It isn’t about bidding lower. It is about innovating and being more effective. Perhaps they can get to know the locals, do pre-emptive work like Canadians, build goodwill… perhaps they can innovate on their techniques for taking down perps, use pepper spray rather than guns, or perhaps they can use bodycams and document everything. Private competition produces far better products and services than when schools and po…

Privatizing police forces will not make them more accountable. If they are not accountable now as a public good, how would them being private somehow improve that?

The only comparable example was charter schools and the results were they cost the taxpayers more, and had worse outcomes, and rarely is their charter revoked for poor performance because they hire the sons of politicians, like Chakrah Fattah's son was before both were charged for corruption, in the case of Philly charter schools.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#193

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:13 PM UTC

i_like_apis wrote: post #138

keybored wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point you (two) are just going to accuse the other of not associating with criminals under the most harsh (or harsh enough) circumstances. Maybe maximum security prison?

No, my whole point is that I'm talking about the general arrest population.

[deleted]

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#194

Post by EGreg » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:16 PM UTC

sc68cal wrote: post #192

EGreg wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t about bidding lower. It is about innovating and being more effective. Perhaps they can get to know the locals, do pre-emptive work like Canadians, build goodwill… perhaps they can innovate on their techniques for taking down perps, use pepper spray rather than guns, or perhaps they can use bodycams and document everything. Private competition produces far better products and services than when schools and po…

Privatizing police forces will not make them more accountable. If they are not accountable now as a public good, how would them being private somehow improve that? The only comparable example was charter schools and the results were they cost the taxpayers more, and had worse outcomes, and rarely is their charter revoked for poor performance because they hire the sons of politicians, like Chakrah Fattah's son was bef…

Because if a better police agency with better results comes along, the neighborhood will simply award the police agencies the contract. How is Gilette accountable for making razors worse than other brands? You stop buying them, that's how.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#195

Post by sc68cal » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:24 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #194

sc68cal wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privatizing police forces will not make them more accountable. If they are not accountable now as a public good, how would them being private somehow improve that? The only comparable example was charter schools and the results were they cost the taxpayers more, and had worse outcomes, and rarely is their charter revoked for poor performance because they hire the sons of politicians, like Chakrah Fattah's son was bef…

Because if a better police agency with better results comes along, the neighborhood will simply award the police agencies the contract. How is Gilette accountable for making razors worse than other brands? You stop buying them, that's how.

A police force is not like picking your razor blade at the store. How is there enough space in a market to have multiple police companies, when most municipalities are going to award a _single_ contract to cover the police work for that municipality. If there is only one contract to award, that means one police company would win and the others go out of business, or leave the "market" and go somewhere else.

That is a natural monopoly, and all you have done is replicated the same issues as a public police force that the politicians are not willing to challenge, except now you have a private monopoly where you can't force any changes or accountability because there's no other competitors.

The "market" does not make things intrinsically better.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#196

Post by EGreg » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:51 PM UTC

sc68cal wrote: post #195

EGreg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if a better police agency with better results comes along, the neighborhood will simply award the police agencies the contract. How is Gilette accountable for making razors worse than other brands? You stop buying them, that's how.

A police force is not like picking your razor blade at the store. How is there enough space in a market to have multiple police companies, when most municipalities are going to award a _single_ contract to cover the police work for that municipality. If there is only one contract to award, that means one police company would win and the others go out of business, or leave the "market" and go somewhere else. That is a…

How do companies compete for business from cities and neighborhoods?

You should look up "enterprise sales" on HN, lol

Google "New Jersey Townships" and see how many there are. Companies can sell smart city services to cities, why not this?

You'd be surprised but many religious communities do have their own para-police forces, like Shomrim, and also their own ambulances etc.

Caution: What you DON'T want to happen is overlapping fire brigades or police forces like NYC's metropolitan police vs municipal police, or bowery boys vs black joke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zoXk1vnmcg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_riot

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#197

Post by karmelapple » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:51 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #99

karmelapple wrote: post #77

I've always found it interesting that when I'm pulled over for a traffic violation, a police officer can use their discretion on whether to punish me. I've been pulled over a few times for speeding, and a couple times I simply got a warning, and other times I got a ticket and had to pay a fine. If I committed a crime, why should an officer have that leeway? They caught me, I should have to pay the consequences... rig…

If I committed a crime The difference is that citeable infractions like plain speeding are not crimes.

It's too late for me to edit it, but my intent was to say I broke the law.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#198

Post by karmelapple » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:53 PM UTC

al_borland wrote: post #110

karmelapple wrote: post #77

I've always found it interesting that when I'm pulled over for a traffic violation, a police officer can use their discretion on whether to punish me. I've been pulled over a few times for speeding, and a couple times I simply got a warning, and other times I got a ticket and had to pay a fine. If I committed a crime, why should an officer have that leeway? They caught me, I should have to pay the consequences... rig…

There are times where a law may have technically been broken, but it was done so to prevent something worse from happening. For a silly example... If I were to run across an empty street (not in a crosswalk) to help steady a ladder someone was about to fall from, then I technically jaywalked. However, it was done with very little risk or downside to prevent someone from getting seriously hurt. The officer could see t…

I'd argue it's time to redefine what jaywalking is then :)

Empty street? Cross it all you want, help that person from falling, it's not a criminal offense. And then the officer wouldn't have to forgive you or look away, but instead there was no law being broken.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#199

Post by karmelapple » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 10:57 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #190

renewiltord wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps we're finding that the efficiencies we build into a system are vulnerabilities abused by unfriendly actors. If I'm going to be treated as second class, you had better be, too.

It's not about efficiency - it's about justice. If you're against discretion then you're against basics of our society like trial by jury. And if you can't trust these people to use discretion sensibly and fairly then you shouldn't be trusting them to do anything.

I think I can be against a single person's discretion and judgment and still be in favor of things like trial by jury.

A trial by jury is multiple people collectively judging on something after taking some time to consider the whole story.

A single officer in the field deciding, within a few minutes, whether you should pay a $200 fine seems very different to me. Although a speeding ticket, and what typically goes in front of a jury, is also usually magnitudes different.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#200

Post by karmelapple » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 11:13 PM UTC

ticviking wrote: post #84

karmelapple wrote: post #77

I've always found it interesting that when I'm pulled over for a traffic violation, a police officer can use their discretion on whether to punish me. I've been pulled over a few times for speeding, and a couple times I simply got a warning, and other times I got a ticket and had to pay a fine. If I committed a crime, why should an officer have that leeway? They caught me, I should have to pay the consequences... rig…

Mandating that cops enforce unpopular laws was critical to Teddy Roosevelt's reform of the NYPD to help reduce corruption. That leeway was used to solicit bribes, particularly to let bars open on Sundays. I think that if we removed a lot of the leeway about enforcement we would find ourselves forces to ask, "What laws do we really care about enforcing in the first place?"

Thanks for sharing this, I hadn't heard of this.

Here's Teddy Roosevelt in his own words [1] describing it:

> To break up the system of blackmail and corruption was less easy. ... the criminal who is blackmailed has a direct interest in paying the blackmailer, and it is not easy to get information about it. Nevertheless, we put a complete stop to most of the blackmail by the simple process of rigorously enforcing the laws, not only against crime, but against vice.

...

> The multiplication of laws by the legislature and their partial enforcement by the executive authorities go hand in hand, and offer one of the many serious problems with which we are confronted in striving to better civic conditions. New York State felt that liquor should not be sold on Sunday. The larger part of New York city wished to drink liquor on Sunday.

> ...

> The law was not in the least a dead-letter; it was enforced, but it was corruptly and partially enforced.

> ...

> The paper again and again called upon the police commissioners to either uniformly enforce the law or uniformly disregard it.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1897/09/municip...