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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#571

Post by india_usa »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #567
anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

>Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative action system for access to education and government jobs. I've heard some pretty horrible stories about this in particular; like Brahmin kids being legally adopted into Sudra families in order to get into a reserved position at a State University, and rich kids with private tutors getting given…

There is 70% affirmitive action. If you are a Dalit with 50% mark you will get admission to a medical seat and you will be a cardiac surgeon, but if a brahmin girl gets 99% she will not get admission and will be a clerk. Go figure the Indian system. This is why you see thousands of Brahmins in Silicon valley as they are kicked out or disgusted with Indian political system of favoring lower castes. USA benefited immensely from it.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#572

Post by chimeracoder »

akavi wrote: post #502
anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

> As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did)

That's not actually sufficient information to infer anything, since people from any of the four savarna castes can participate in the ceremony. It varies a lot by region and community.

It's not actually unheard-of for Dalits to have it, although that's rare.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#573

Post by killerdhmo »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #569
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US caste system absolutely exists; it’s called old money. And old money communities absolutely limit occupations and opportunities based on this.

I have never been asked to put my parents occupations or net worth on a resume, or been asked it in an interview.

You don't have to. It comes up with your universities, your hobbies, your zip code, even your name. That leads into what jobs you get, how much money you earn, and now what position your kids are in.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#574

Post by wumpus »

pydry wrote: post #529
Johnny555 wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that really thinks the USA has no caste is in an upper level caste. It's less formalized here than in other countries, but it absolutely exists.

American caste is just money though.

Money, education, Mayflower ancestor, eligible to join the Daughters of the American Revolution, distant relative of some famous or wealthy family, member of some social clubs (even inexpensive ones), and so on.

Edit: but as many other folks are mentioning, this is class and not caste. You'll notice that around half of the things I've mentioned are something you're born with.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#575

Post by oh_sigh »

vijaybritto wrote: post #309
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating, thanks. What's the closest parallel in the Western world?

I'm afraid there is none. Also its better if people from the west do not try to draw parallels with their experiences and culture. It simply doesn't match. This would help you understand the caste system and once you do, you would literally see it in any place where Indians live/work. The revelations would be mind boggling for sure. For ex, if there are a bunch of Indians in a work place and a few of them are from lo…

I don't buy this...even if white people don't understand caste, they would still understand random team members not being invited to group events and perhaps try to find out why it happened that way.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#576

Post by guenthert »

gomoboo wrote: post #534
akavi wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

Isn’t this just relying on security through obscurity? The knowledge is already out there for anyone wishing to seek it. Why pretend it doesn’t exist? For what it’s worth, I am not of Indian descent.

"Ignorance is bliss" is the phrase you're looking for.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#577

Post by TrackerFF »

nyolfen wrote: post #477
TrackerFF wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how the Sámi people are treated in Sweden, Finland, or Russia - but here in Norway there has indeed been a long history of discrimination against the Sámi. But tbh, it's just half a century ago that pretty much all people from Northern Norway were discriminated against, in the southern parts. Which is why most people moving south were recommended to change accent - fast. More so if you wanted to work in any…

> (sea/coast Sámi vs hill/raindeer) can you speak more to this? i'm totally unfamiliar with the folk taxonomy

Sure - traditionally the Sámi people have been divided into two groups: Those that have lived around / near coastlines ("sea Sámi"), and those more inland (typically just "Sámi", or "reindeer Sámi", "hill/mountain Sámi".

In short, the coastal Sámi people have made their living off fishing, farming, and similar activities.

On the other hand, those living inland have mostly made their money off reindeer husbandry. Reindeers will forage over a large area, and in Northern Norway / Sweden / Finland / Russia that includes large tundra and hilly places - so many of Sámi involved in that trade would trek over and live in these areas.

With that said, these days I think only 5%-10% of Sámi have reindeer husbandry as their main profession.

But the vast majority of conflicts between Sámi people and the rest usually comes down to the reindeer. Since the reindeer need a huge area to graze on, it tends to become a problem for companies wanting to develop the area for industry.

Just recently our supreme court decided that a wind farm had been bult in conflict with cultural landscape of local Sámi people. Reindeer husbandry is a cultural heritage activity, and thus protected. The area reindeer graze on, is thus a cultural landscape, and also protected.

The intra-Sámi conflicts, from what I've seen and heard, boils down to either things related to the reindeer industry - or I guess elitism from the "true" Sámi people toward the coastal Sámi people.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#578

Post by akavi »

chimeracoder wrote: post #572
akavi wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

> As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did) That's not actually sufficient information to infer anything, since people from any of the four savarna castes can participate in the ceremony. It varies a lot by region and community. It's not actually unheard-of for Dalits to have it, a…

Oh huh, TIL!

Well, then I have no idea at all what my caste is.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#579

Post by adiM »

gabereiser wrote: post #499
devnonymous wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that there are other 'cues' as well that casteists use to identify your caste, such as the food you eat (veg/non-veg), the social rituals/ceremonies or religious practices you engage in. In fact, you'd see enough Brahmins (in the US!) wear the scared thread[1] and embrace the entire identity of being at the 'top' of the caste system that knowing that you are a non-brahmin is sufficient for them to treat you as a…

We have that same view in software engineering as well. s/Brahmins/FAANGs and s/Dalit/Non-FAANG. Not saying it's everywhere but it exists, even on these very forums. How is one from a coding school or bootcamp ever to be seen as an equal to those that took a traditional route? For the most part, people treat people equally but I've seen this kind of behavior on here and in person on a few occasions.

The difference with caste is that caste is inherited. If you wear rose-coloured glasses, you can assume that hiring at FAANG is merit based and a non-FAANG can move to FAANG if they want. That’s not possible with caste.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#580

Post by oh_sigh »

india_usa wrote: post #570

Quoted post unavailable.

What caste are you?

> For tech companies like Google who hire purely by merit, if someone has made inside Google that's it. Otherwise if there is discrimination they would not have hired it.

I don't think anyone is claiming that companies like Google are organizationally enforcing caste discrimination, more like some employees within the company are doing it on their own.

> Thenmozhi is a radical leftist out to create division rather than love.

Pointing out wrongs may indeed create division, but that doesn't mean it is wrong to do so.

> her father is a doctor, so if they are suppressed how come he is a doctor.

Maybe he would be surgeon general(or equivalent) right now if he wasn't? This logic is just plain wrong - it would be like saying that racism didn't exist in the US in 1967 - otherwise how would Thurgood Marshall be on the Supreme Court?

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