Google cancelled a talk on caste bias • Hacker News Board

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#511

Post by skyde » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

1270018080 wrote: post #500

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

To me, all of these statements 100% confirm caste discrimination exists in America. Whenever I hear confronting history and privilege as "sowing further division" I cringe hard. The parallels in American history are, well... very parallel.

The problem is "affirmative action" is just reverse discrimination and this is why it bring further division. Because people from both sides now, no longer feel reward is based on merit alone anymore.

If there is another solution than "affirmative action" this might not be divisive.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#512

Post by jp57 » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:35 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #91

As a leftist, one of the things that gives me pause about identity politics and the language of identity divorced from class struggle is how easily it is repurposed by reactionaries: > But Google employees began spreading disinformation, calling her “Hindu-phobic” and “anti-Hindu” in emails to the company’s leaders, documents posted on Google’s intranet and mailing lists with thousands of employees. I don't have a so…

What wasn't clear to me was whether they were claiming that her ideas about caste equality were specificall anti-hindu, or if it's just an ad hominem attack to try to shut her down.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#513

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:35 PM UTC

jjcon wrote: post #504

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

> efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. I think is a real point and is true of many issues - the problem is how do you fix a problem silently in the background? Can it be done with better results than hyperfocusing on it? I would guess and hope there might be a way but don't know how.

Talking about social problems only "sows further division" in the sense that people who currently benefit from those problems get angry that you want to change things.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#514

Post by ethanbond » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

devnull3 wrote: post #92

rob74 wrote: post #21

> Soundararajan appealed directly to Google CEO Sundar Pichai, who comes from an upper-caste family in India, to allow her presentation to go forward. But the talk was canceled, leading some employees to conclude that Google was willfully ignoring caste bias. > Pichai, the CEO, “is Indian and he is Brahmin and he grew up in Tamil Nadu. There is no way you grow up in Tamil Nadu and not know about caste because of how…

I doubt it. In fact attrocities on brahmins is rarely discussed [1]. Infact his state TamilNadu there is a strong anti-brahminism sentiment in political sphere. This is one of the reason why lot of upper-caste men/women go outside India. [1] https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/the-brahmin-files-why-atro...

Doesn’t excuse any discriminatory behavior here in the States. Or, frankly, even in India.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#515

Post by empressplay » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

akavi wrote: post #502

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

I think the argument that "efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division" isn't totally without merit. As an America-born Indian-American, I honestly don't know what my caste is beyond knowing I'm not Brahmin (I didn't do the string ceremony some of my childhood family friends did), and have basically zero idea of how I'd identify someone else's caste. I imagine that that'…

Um, no. The only division it would sow would be when you notice your Indian-born manager is discriminating against your Indian-born co-worker.

The only people who really want to stop awareness of this are people like that manager.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#516

Post by QuarterReptile » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #478

QuarterReptile wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course. Women are not physiologically better at QA than other roles in tech companies. That's it. That's 100% of the information required to determine that this is the result of sexism. Car mechanics aren't all women, even though women's hands fit much better into all those tiny spaces in the dashboard and engine bay? Sexism Nurses aren't overwhelmingly male, despite the fact that a significant part of the job is…

Your point here is unintelligible for me.

I was trying to show by example that grandparent's definition of sexism is ridiculously expansive to the point of choking out all other dimensions of life.

I chose them as two things that don't often get cited as evidence of sexism (though mechanic isn't so dirty a job, and isn't dangerous at all. I have more personal awareness if mechanics, so that's what I chose.)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#517

Post by LargeWu » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:42 PM UTC

adolph wrote: post #371

sitkack wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment is only at zero, it means nothing. I made no qualitative statement about QA being beneath anything. Most developers equate QA is beneath them. I also think QA is just as valid and not beneath dev, but I have also held nearly every roll in modern software companies. How we view QA doesn't mean that is how the tech job market sees it. Pay is lower, qual is lower and at companies that have a sizeable Indian…

> equate QA is beneath them I think the status quality of jobs is an interesting aspect of discrimination. Why do certain jobs have higher or lower status? If the perceived status of various jobs was flatter, would various discriminatory schemes (intentional or not) continue to operate? Would differences in income persist? My hypothesis is that demographic clusters of people within certain occupations are in part aff…

One aspect I've noticed throughout my career is that the engineering problems QE engineers face are generally more straightforward, with well-defined parameters, and common patterns. The skills required to be a successful QE engineer require, generally, less breadth and depth of expertise than some other disciplines of engineering. I think it's a natural landing place for people who know how to write some code, but struggle to view problems at multiple levels of abstraction.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#518

Post by michaelmrose » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

skyde wrote: post #511

1270018080 wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, all of these statements 100% confirm caste discrimination exists in America. Whenever I hear confronting history and privilege as "sowing further division" I cringe hard. The parallels in American history are, well... very parallel.

The problem is "affirmative action" is just reverse discrimination and this is why it bring further division. Because people from both sides now, no longer feel reward is based on merit alone anymore. If there is another solution than "affirmative action" this might not be divisive.

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination it's a purely content free term. Discrimination is merely discrimination with the insertion of the word reverse having no additional meaning.

It's normal for any system which creates an incentive to hire minorities to still be so biased in favor of white dudes that you are still much better off being a white dude.

Basically for every minority that wouldn't have made it on merit it's likely you could find two white dudes with the same level of actual merit.

This degrades substantially the virtue of complaints about such discrimination.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#519

Post by devwastaken » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

anonymousab wrote: post #489

> After Gupta posted a link in the email group to a petition to reinstate the talk, respondents argued that caste discrimination does not exist, that caste is not a thing in the United States, and that efforts to raise awareness of these issues in the United States would sow further division. > Some called caste equity a form of reverse discrimination against the highest-ranked castes because of India’s affirmative a…

Companies only talk about equality because 1. Requires by title IX and 2. Advertising. It is immediately clear to anyone whom has done even the slightest research that no org with millions/billions sitting around can ever claim to support equality in any respect.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#520

Post by foolinaround » Thu, Jun 02, 2022, 9:46 PM UTC

sashu123 wrote: post #240

sumedh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parents tell you your caste. You can also get a caste certificate from you local municipal office which helps you take advantage of some perks if you belong to a "lower" class. Generally you wont be able to figure the caste of someone but there are clues like skin color, fairer skin generally is "upper" caste, sometimes your surname also gives away your caste. Unfortunately some Indians specially from the "upper…

fair skin thing is nonsense. I'm a Tamil Brahmin (Brahmin being the highest caste) and I'm one of the darkest skinned people in India. Most of my friends are far darker than most Indians from North India. It's much easier to identify through surname (Pichai I'm pretty sure is a brahmin surname), but certain states like Tamil Nadu banned surnames for this reason. If people ask me my surname, it is T. Every government…

> fair skin thing is nonsense

Well it is a stereotype, and they are often true, but not always. eg, in TN, the average brahmin or upper class individual will be fair-skinned while the lower class one would be dark skinned.

I guess up in the North, this does not hold.

> but certain states like Tamil Nadu banned surnames for this reason.

The govt did not ban it. It was more a social movement where one was looked down upon (and even discriminated against for showing they belonged to the higher castes). That's why there are still folks who continue to keep 'Iyer' in their name.