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In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

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Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#161

Post by robonerd »

ameister14 wrote: post #142
robonerd wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is a scumbag? There are marginal cases for sure, but let's not pretend that true scumbags don't exist just because the demarcation line is subjective; that's like pretending there's no such thing as a ripe banana because the green fades gradually into yellow with no clear line between them. Look beyond the marginal cases and it becomes clear that the difference really does exist. There are people in this countr…

I think people with numerous DUIs are just as likely to have a serious disease as have some moral failing resulting in them being a 'scumbag.' To me, choice is a major differentiator rather than 'obviously this person has a history of x actions' in the abstract.

And maybe the wife beater is fucked in the head because he got brain damage as a kid from his dad beating him. I don't really care though, I don't have a problem classifying him as a scumbag. Cycles of abuse can be broken, and addictions can be kicked (and usually, avoided in the first place. Unlike getting beaten by your dad.)

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#162

Post by cmroanirgo »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #128

I feel that there are a lot of concerns in these comments that come mostly out of misconceptions about the broader complexity of police oversight and professional standards and the way this kind of system integrates into it. I serve as part of the police oversight system in a major city and would love to consider a program like this, which I think would tend to actually mitigate many of the problems people are raisin…

Perhaps this is all true in your country, but not mine.

I used to regularly take photos of cops abusing the system. I even once followed a cop going well above the speed limit when their lights weren't flashing. 20km down the road I eventually caught up with them because they'd pulled over... to set up a speed trap! Naturally, my first words were, "'Allo, 'allo, 'allo, do you know what speed you were doing?" (I'm not in UK).

I've caught them blocking traffic to book people getting around traffic jams in the other direction, after watching them speeding and going through a red light, & doing an illegal u-turn.

Double parking. Forcing cars to cross double lines, to book minor infringements. Going almost double the speed limit through a retirement village (90km/hr in 50 zone). Blocking traffic to buy food... my list is pretty long!

Police need to uphold one rule: serve the community by obeying the rules they enforce.

In my country they give themselves almost free reign, to the point where they're almost terrorists.

No amount of social and media propaganda, nor closed door review processes, will rectify the situation, unless atrocious behavior is stopped

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#163

Post by jcrawfordor »

robonerd wrote: post #159
sc68cal wrote: post #137

It doesn't matter how you "rate" cops if the police union goes to bat for bad cops and gets their jobs reinstated, or they just leave one department and move to another. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/police-unions-contracts-sh... We know who the bad cops are. There's a list of them in Philadelphia who the District Attorney (the current, and previous) will never call to the witness stand because they give unreliab…

If the DA really knows who the bad cops are, the DA should prosecute them. DAs blaming cops are hoping that the public don't realize the DAs themselves are dropping the ball and letting cops get away with it.

Unreliable testimony isn't a crime (in fact, on these lists, it often originates from officers having committed and been convicted of and served sentences for other crimes). Broadly speaking, protection of police officers from criminal prosecution is broad in such a way that it is difficult to prosecute police for even clear cut violations. For example, the Graham factors used to assess criminal culpability in the use of deadly force are appreciably more generous than most department policies and DoJ recommendations, meaning that there's a broad range of use of force that is in violation of department orders (including severe violations) but not criminal. Use of force on a fleeing individual is a common example. While there is definitely room for prosecutors to be more aggressive on police misconduct, the reality is that there is a huge spectrum of things for which officers ought to be fired but cannot be prosecuted for. Simple incompetence or lack of care is far from the least significant and common.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#164

Post by whatshisface »

robonerd wrote: post #158
whatshisface wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is often true, but local police departments are not known for being excessively data-driven.

Yeah, but giving them metrics won't fix that. Even forcing them to cite the metrics in their decisions won't force a culture change. And even if you could somehow convince/force them to earnestly intend to be data-driven, they'd probably still fail. In ostensibly data-driven workplaces, the decision makers pick and choose which metrics to consider, influence how those metrics are measured, determine which exceptions…

Right, but you can't simultaneously say that pursuit of the metrics will lead the organization away from its holistic goals while also saying that managers will ignore what the metrics are telling them by interpreting them to confirm whatever they wanted to begin with. Something can't be both inert and poisonous.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#165

Post by ameister14 »

daenz wrote: post #157
ameister14 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much, yeah. I'm acknowledging that it is possible the person with numerous DUIs is an alcoholic and that, once drunk, the intent necessary for a knowing crime is no longer really there. The logic of 'chose to get drunk so chose the consequences' doesn't work if the person has a disease causing them to continuously drink.

Do you think being an alcoholic is a valid defense if you murder someone while drunk?

Unlikely - it's definitely something you can raise in an argument about intent to get drunk and that lack of intent impacting the nature of mens rea, so it might be a mitigating factor, but either way it isn't a complete defense so you're kinda starting at negligent homicide.

The difference, of course, is I'm not actually talking about what you did, I'm talking about what makes you a scumbag. I don't think people can really be unintentional scumbags - intent is required.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#166

Post by jcrawfordor »

cmroanirgo wrote: post #162
jcrawfordor wrote: post #128

I feel that there are a lot of concerns in these comments that come mostly out of misconceptions about the broader complexity of police oversight and professional standards and the way this kind of system integrates into it. I serve as part of the police oversight system in a major city and would love to consider a program like this, which I think would tend to actually mitigate many of the problems people are raisin…

Perhaps this is all true in your country, but not mine. I used to regularly take photos of cops abusing the system. I even once followed a cop going well above the speed limit when their lights weren't flashing. 20km down the road I eventually caught up with them because they'd pulled over... to set up a speed trap! Naturally, my first words were, "'Allo, 'allo, 'allo, do you know what speed you were doing?" (I'm not…

I'm in no way claiming that any of these measures are especially effective. Rather, I'm sharing the caution that this program is unlikely to result in any significant changes other than the availability of better data... including all of the negative outcomes people here predict. There is a long track record of police chain of command ignoring data, policy, and disciplinary recommendations, and that's an entirely separate problem to solve.

> Police need to uphold one rule: serve the community.

It's functionally impossible to enforce this rule without fairly significant community feedback obtained through a formalized mechanism like this. People have been trying for decades and you yourself have described the result. accountability of police officers is routinely defeated based mostly on the lack of objective evidence of significant wrongdoing (which is a requirement to take any action, often explicitly under CBAs but always in practice as a result of employment law, culture, etc). Improved mechanisms of collecting data on officer performance is an enabling step towards broader reform of departmental culture, not in the least by showing that a problem does exist. Right now, many departments evade action simply by denying that there is a problem and not collecting the information that would reveal it.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#167

Post by ameister14 »

robonerd wrote: post #161
ameister14 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people with numerous DUIs are just as likely to have a serious disease as have some moral failing resulting in them being a 'scumbag.' To me, choice is a major differentiator rather than 'obviously this person has a history of x actions' in the abstract.

And maybe the wife beater is fucked in the head because he got brain damage as a kid from his dad beating him. I don't really care though, I don't have a problem classifying him as a scumbag. Cycles of abuse can be broken, and addictions can be kicked (and usually, avoided in the first place. Unlike getting beaten by your dad.)

Yeah, if the person is intellectually disabled and that disability causes them to act in a certain way then I don't really consider them a scumbag either. Their parents, maybe, or whoever is supposed to be supervising them.

Look, if you're a person who enjoys harming others, is incredibly lazy and chooses theft or destruction over actively working in your community when you have the opportunity to do so then you're more of a scumbag in my book.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#168

Post by devmor »

ameister14 wrote: post #153
daenz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you making the case that a person with numerous DUIs doesn't have a choice in the decision to drive drunk, and therefore isn't a scumbag?

Pretty much, yeah. I'm acknowledging that it is possible the person with numerous DUIs is an alcoholic and that, once drunk, the intent necessary for a knowing crime is no longer really there. The logic of 'chose to get drunk so chose the consequences' doesn't work if the person has a disease causing them to continuously drink.

Recognizing the root cause doesn't remove choice or blame. If we follow your logic consistently, then none of us are ultimately responsible for anything we do because of determinism.

Things like that should only really be a factor in choosing sentencing and rehabilitation.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#169

Post by devmor »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #119
netizen-936824 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could argue that police come from the same population as anyone else, therefore a significant portion of police will also be scum

That doesn't contradict the parent's claim. Moreover, they're not drawn from the same population, there is a filtering mechanism that reasonably skews for police to be above-average even if we might want it to be better. Moreover, I'm also skeptical of the simplistic idea that our policing problem derives from "too many immoral officers". It seems more likely that it's an emergent property of the incentives and const…

> a filtering mechanism that reasonably skews for police to be above-average

Cite your sources please. I have a very significant doubt that this is empirically true.

In fact I'd be willing to wager that the nature of the job provids an improvised filter that achieves the exact opposite effect.

Re: In a small Virginia town, citizens review police like Uber drivers

#170

Post by robonerd »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #163
robonerd wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the DA really knows who the bad cops are, the DA should prosecute them. DAs blaming cops are hoping that the public don't realize the DAs themselves are dropping the ball and letting cops get away with it.

Unreliable testimony isn't a crime (in fact, on these lists, it often originates from officers having committed and been convicted of and served sentences for other crimes). Broadly speaking, protection of police officers from criminal prosecution is broad in such a way that it is difficult to prosecute police for even clear cut violations. For example, the Graham factors used to assess criminal culpability in the us…

> While there is definitely room for prosecutors to be more aggressive on police misconduct

That's severely underselling it. Unless somebody dies, a prosecutor is more likely to give up before they even try. Even when somebody dies, that's still a common outcome. Prosecutors even let cops off for crimes committed off duty, wholly unrelated to any conceivable work matter.

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