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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#431
post #104

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

>The role of caste within the US is a super important conversation to have, and every resident of the US is entitled to participate, but there are a lot of people with a vested interest in shutting it down and the tools to do so. I don't believe HN's current moderation policies/leadership make this the place to have that conversation though. Participate in good faith all you want, you'll still earn a ban/warning for…

[deleted]

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#433
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, if few Indian managers discriminate against Dalits, how are their non-Indian peers and managers supposed to correct that discrimination if they don't even understand what are castes? Shouldn't the managers and decision makers be aware of the local customs, cultural issues and employment laws in the region they manage? You really think it's appropriate for some white American manager to lecture his Indian subor…

> You really think it's appropriate for some white American manager to lecture his Indian subordinates after spending a few hours in training? If he/she sees a clear violation of discrimination laws/policies, then yes! Although "lecture" wouldn't be the best start. Asking questions to the alleged discriminator would be a better way forward. Find out what happened and why, and ask multiple people for their input. Star…

> when used truthfully and in good faith, [words] enable us to bridge gaps where we lack that personal experience, and make accurate judgments.

That's why learning to express ourselves well, and listen well (including empathetically) is so important to a functioning society.

As a society, we need a restored faith in the power of words to communicate any truth (including truths people erroneously say are "inaccessible apart from lived experience") and be understood by those who will listen well.

The problem isn't that truth is unknowable or incommunicable, the problem is that not enough people are speaking it, and of those who are, many don't speak intelligently and/or intelligibly. And not enough of those who listen do so carefully, thoughtfully, and empathetically.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outing a co-worker is pretty mean. And asking all kinda of private background questions in order to judge someone's social standing and treat them accordingly is intrusive and bigotted. As usual, racists are more often than not mean bigots. It is somewhat different if you grew up in the caste system, and the discriminatory behaviour was just ingrained. If you start falling back to that based on, e.g., surname it's ha…

> And asking all kinda of private background questions in order to judge someone's social standing and treat them accordingly is intrusive and bigotted. This also happens in the west and it's not caste-related. Go to a suburban barbecue or something, and observe: people will ask what you do for a living, which neighborhood you live in, how long have you been living here, where did you originally come from, and so on.…

Sure, small talk is fine. Only that under the Indian caste system the consequences, and intentions, are much more sinister and severe.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racists tend to be ethno-supremecists, ie they think they belong to the "best" race.

So racists are inclined to think they're "the best". Why are people who think they're "the best" inclined to think it's in part / mostly / solely due to race?

Elitism comes with a lot of rationalizations to justify the beliefs about who is worthy or not.

Typically one of them is "sharing these key characteristics with me make you better than those who don't", these characteristics often involve some kind of racial-like features.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, race is also socially constructed; they're different cultures' ways of stratifying social categories. That said, all that matters for the law in this case is what the courts say.

Eh, I hate this conversation. Maybe? If we follow that thread, everything is a social construct. It gets silly fast. Now, if were to look for a biological definition from Webster(1), race would be defined as: a group within a species that is distinguishable (as morphologically, genetically, or behaviorally) from others of the same species How is skin color not a distinguishable trait? Now.. it might not be politicall…

It's okay to just admit you don't know something. Here's the American Anthropological Association's public outreach site on the subject, so you can catch up on the relevant science.

https://understandingrace.org/

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#437
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when does '-phobia' mean 'hatred'? If I suffer from arachnophobia, do I hate spiders?

Since always. It's an extreme dislike ( the opposite of "philia"). "Revulsion" might be a better translation than fear or hatred.

> Since always.

Is was used like that in Greek? Even the clinical meaning today does not include hatred.

> "Revulsion" might be a better translation than fear or hatred.

Fear does not require disgust. I am scared of snakes but I think they are beautiful animals.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#438
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd posit that 99.999% of people agree racism is bad. It's mostly when the definition gets muddied and expanded that people start disagreeing and it becomes political and touchy.

I don't think it's a matter of definition. Unless you mean "it's not racism when I say it. When I say it it's just a fact". Whether they use the N word, or saying "being on time" is "whiteness", racism is always defined as "not what I'm doing". Actually the only real definition of racism I would say is "mentioning race in any way, except the way I do it". For your 99.999%, I would say that WAY more than one in a hund…

I think the problem is - and that is likely what OP was referring to - that if everything is racism then nothing is racism. And if being on time is racist, I guess everything already is racist.

It is an odd frame of mind.

>>> For your 99.999%, I would say that WAY more than one in a hundred thousand would overtly say that their group (race, religion, skin color, gender) is "better" than another. Especially as you leave western countries.

Is it possible you are conflating racism with xenophobia ( which has slightly expanded to include foreigners )?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which would give grounds on the hiring manager front for investigating one's employer for de-facto blacklisting. Which is illegal. Just because someone points out the elrphant in the room at a workplace does not make them "radioactive". Quite the opposite. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Organizing a labor protest because of unfair working conditions, or as an attempt to unionize, is "protected" by US regulations (not necessarily laws). Organizing a labor protest because of a (real or perceived) culture of sexual harassment is not. If she had a valid and provable claim of wrongdoing, she should have approached an attorney and sued Google to elicit change (and maybe some compensation). I believe I rea…

>Organizing a labor protest because of unfair working conditions, or as an attempt to unionize, is "protected" by US regulations

>Organizing a labor protest because of a (real or perceived) culture of sexual harassment is not.

...Pardon me, but do you not consider a workplace wherein sexual harassment is implicitly encouraged or tolerated to the point that someone feels the need to clarify or remind others this a workplace to not be a subset of unfair working conditions? I do. Generally it is something that hardly needs explaining in the majority of places I've been, but in the places that needed it, it was needed. It can be overdone. Given recent history on Google however, I'm willing to entertain the benefit of a doubt.

>The same thing goes for trying to organize a meeting with a speaker who will talk about the caste system in Silicon Valley. Yeah, caste == bad, but is the employer obligated to host such a meeting (at their expense)?

Does the employer outsource a sizable chunk of business to somewhere where these concerns are valid? Is management composed of people to whom these concerns should apply? If yes, then absolutely.

Look, the bigger a collective unit of humanity you are, the higher my standards go. Everyone individually is prone to their own vices/biases/fallibilities/etc... but the entire point behind collectives is that not all component members are hopefully having an evil day at the same time. So on average, behavior should tend away from blatant unethical or immoral behavior. This is doubly important, because group behavior is indicative of culture of the constituent parts.

I understand there are some people who look at businesses as nothing but profit engines. I don't. If your business ends up perpetuating discriminatory practices because there is some executive at the top who is a caste-ist bastard, and you've got boots on the ground attestating that yes, that tendency shines through to them numerous enough, then it is absolutely a valid expenditure of our collective society's time.

Should it eclipse everything else? No not necessarily. Is there a point where one needs to rein it in? Who should be entrusted with that decision?

Certainly not those in power/up top. There are fewer of them, and the power they wield taints their impartiality. It is most safely ensconced amongst your workers.

If one person asks for it, say no. Two or three do, start paying attention, possibly escalate. If it is worth your people's time to hear this person out, it is worth your time.

Beside's which, as a leader, you are best thought of as a cache. If you haven't formed a stance or policy in it, do the expensive operation, then cache the result.

Boom. Done. Everybody's happy. Ignoring the potential problem won't make it go away.

Bottom up, not top down. Telling the bottom to chill out because Fearless Leader would never let anything improper happen is about the most unamerican thing I can possibly imagine... Nevermind the biggest bloody lie out there.

In short; I tend to disagree with your standpoint. My job isn't to optimize your accountant's profit figures, it's to make sure that signals get handled so the people doing the real work can concentrate on that. The profit will generally take care of itself.

People are complicated. Those that think they've simplified them enough are inevitably due for a refresher in human nature.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outing a co-worker is pretty mean. And asking all kinda of private background questions in order to judge someone's social standing and treat them accordingly is intrusive and bigotted. As usual, racists are more often than not mean bigots. It is somewhat different if you grew up in the caste system, and the discriminatory behaviour was just ingrained. If you start falling back to that based on, e.g., surname it's ha…

> And asking all kinda of private background questions in order to judge someone's social standing and treat them accordingly is intrusive and bigotted. This also happens in the west and it's not caste-related. Go to a suburban barbecue or something, and observe: people will ask what you do for a living, which neighborhood you live in, how long have you been living here, where did you originally come from, and so on.…

I often ask these questions as well, and mostly it's just to find something common, doesn't have anything to do with the social totem pole.
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