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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#401

Post by cycomanic »

walkhour wrote: post #379
lyaa wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not see the logical link by which these more general studies contextualize and support my earlier statements?

I see why you may think that way, but I don't think you're right. I guess for you it's a given QA jobs are "inferior" to SWE jobs. I guess you believe the articles you linked proof women tend to get "inferior" jobs just because they're women? (I haven't read the articles, although I believe this to be true). I just can't make the jump that this applies to QA jobs (granting they are "inferior"). That would imply "infe…

So talking about generalities, there are plenty of statistics that show that women have lower paying jobs and get paid less even for the same jobs. We can argue about the reasons but the fact that they are paid less has been shown many times, so if you are disputing it you should be provide some compelling evidence.

So the the question is are QA jobs lower paid or not. That's easy to check and is a pretty good (though not perfect) indicator of status. A quick Google would have shown you that this is generally the case. Funnily enough you will also find lots of dismissive posts which shows that at least some people think QA jobs are inferior, because "they don't code, but just use the software".

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#402

Post by richardfey »

thelit wrote: post #312
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

A good read for some additional context on caste discrimination in the American tech industry: https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidde...

As a Dalit myself, I wrote a Dalit 101 for non Indian audience. https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101

Well written! Thanks

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#403

Post by Pigalowda »

dundarious wrote: post #381
Pigalowda wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worry is that it will take many generations of significant investment back into the Dalit communities to bring them into parity with the rest of the Indian population. That even after the investment the longterm epigenetic effects from thousands of years of high intergenerational stress will show a significant increase in diseases of all types with higher all cause mortality/lower life expectancy.

Lifestyle factors drastically dominate when it comes to mortality/life expectancy. Also, the whole idea is highly speculative and would/should have no implications for workplace/hiring practices regardless.

Yes it is true that with improvement in maternal/fetal survivability modifiable lifestyle factors drastically dominate life expectancy. However that's a throw away line to disregard significant differences. It's basically zooming out far enough to say it doesn't matter.

And yes, its a speculative idea that I proposed, I certainly didn't suggest it was dogma. However this kind of observation is what would lead to a study.

Lastly, while this discussion is tangential to Google hiring practices, it is a related topic. I'm sorry if you feel like I robbed you of your time.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#404

Post by NoGravitas »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #311
NoGravitas wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from the morality of the situation, the fact is that racial discrimination in the workplace is illegal in the US (and rightly so, in my opinion). Whether caste discrimination is a form of racial discrimination is the subject of current litigation in California. Given that there are legal requirements the company needs to stay in compliance with, this is squarely outside of "politics at work".

This is likely the only reasonable counter to my opinion so far. That said, is caste of a racial nature? To my understanding it really more of a social construct more tied to ethnicity.

To be clear, race is also socially constructed; they're different cultures' ways of stratifying social categories. That said, all that matters for the law in this case is what the courts say.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#406

Post by devnonymous »

thelit wrote: post #398
okdood64 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey there! Thanks for writing this. One question I've always had is, how do you know you're Dalit if you were born outside of India? How do others? Especially, say, when meeting other Indians in some tech company in the US?

If you’re a Dalit, you’d know. As I mention in the post, membership to a caste is granted by birth. If both your parents are Dalit, you’re a Dalit too. How do others know: it’s not obvious. Dalits either change their last name to something common enough to not have any caste indicator. They’d avoid any discussion on caste. So effectively, they hide but there are some who don’t and keep their last name. Still, not eve…

Note that there are other 'cues' as well that casteists use to identify your caste, such as the food you eat (veg/non-veg), the social rituals/ceremonies or religious practices you engage in. In fact, you'd see enough Brahmins (in the US!) wear the scared thread[1] and embrace the entire identity of being at the 'top' of the caste system that knowing that you are a non-brahmin is sufficient for them to treat you as a Dalit.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#407

Post by hef19898 »

alex_smart wrote: post #394
hef19898 wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, if you see one of your directs singeling out one of his emoloyees, it is your job to find out why. That includes talking to the employee. And because caste is so hard to grasp for non-Indians talks like the one cancelled by Google are so important. Maybe I have a different view on that, we German's are quite sensitive when it comes to anti-semitism. And as woth caste, if religion is never openly discuss…

>As a manager, if you see one of your directs singeling out one of his emoloyees, it is your job to find out why You are just saying that it is the job of the super-manager to find out why without answering how the job is supposed to be carried out. The manager says he is acting against the employee because of their lack of performance or insubordination. The employee says the manager is discriminating against them b…

Oh, you have talks with everyone involved. You consult HR. You get to the bottom of it. When you did, and it turns out that it was in fact discrimination, terminating the discriminating manager might be an option.

Not sure what a "super-manager" is supposed to be. Everyone reports to someone, even the CEO reports to the board. And the board reports to the shareholders. If a company cannot figure out cases of discrimination it is already screwed.

In real life, so, the disriminated party either gets a transfer or a generous severance package. Even if the discriminating manager gets fired. Nobody likes people that make waves.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#408

Post by alex_smart »

sashu123 wrote: post #240
sumedh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parents tell you your caste. You can also get a caste certificate from you local municipal office which helps you take advantage of some perks if you belong to a "lower" class. Generally you wont be able to figure the caste of someone but there are clues like skin color, fairer skin generally is "upper" caste, sometimes your surname also gives away your caste. Unfortunately some Indians specially from the "upper…

fair skin thing is nonsense. I'm a Tamil Brahmin (Brahmin being the highest caste) and I'm one of the darkest skinned people in India. Most of my friends are far darker than most Indians from North India. It's much easier to identify through surname (Pichai I'm pretty sure is a brahmin surname), but certain states like Tamil Nadu banned surnames for this reason. If people ask me my surname, it is T. Every government…

>I'm a Tamil Brahmin (Brahmin being the highest caste) and I'm one of the darkest skinned people in India.

Do you have ancestral home in Mylapore? If not you're not real Tam-Brahm. (JK obviously)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#409

Post by dandare »

alex_smart wrote: post #350
dandare wrote: post #334

After a quick google search I can see some very controversial comments by Thenmozhi Soundararajan. Hopefully the world is changing and demonising ones race, even if that race is white or Hindu, will soon be neither celebrated nor even acceptable.

How is Dr Subramanian relevant to this article again?

Typo (old clipboard). Thanks for pointing it out.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#410

Post by deelly »

zajio1am wrote: post #390
alex_smart wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually you know someone's caste from their last name. I am someone who was not given a caste-based last name because my parents were influenced by a regional movement against caste. (I didn't even have a last name to begin with but eventually added a non caste-based one to avoid visa issues.) Whenever I traveled by train and chatted up with a co-passenger, almost surely they would ask my name and would never be sati…

So why people (specifically immigrants in other countries) just do not change their last name to ones associated with higher caste?

As far as I know (from some coworkers) they do. But last name is only the first step/flag in identifying to which caste person belongs. Sorry, I don't remember exact details, but there some additional steps like special clothes I think?
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