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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#321

Post by PeterisP »

yalogin wrote: post #118

The talk should have allowed to go through. The post I think said it right, people wanted to shut it down and the only way to do it is to discredit the speaker because they know there is truth to the arguments. However we should step back and think about how important it in the American context. What purpose is that talk going to serve? I don’t know if it does anything other than satisfying esoteric learning needs of…

Even directly in USA Google (and other companies) employ very many Indians. The stats that I can find about Google say that in their USA offices 42% of them are Asian, and out of those the general tech industry stats tell me that roughly 40% would be from India, so caste might be relevant to something like 15% percent of the workforce; and I have no stats on caste distribution but if I guess that disadvantaged castes might be 1/3 of that i.e. 5% then that is a larger group than African Americans which are 4.4% in Google USA.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#322

Post by chowells »

lexapro wrote: post #37
sitkack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just caste discrimination, but also sexism. I have worked at least three companies where if there were Indian women, the vast majority were in QA.

There seem to be more women in QA in general. Genuinely asking: Is this also sexism?

Of course. Women are not physiologically better at QA than other roles in tech companies. That's it. That's 100% of the information required to determine that this is the result of sexism.

However, a lot of people seem to think that describing reality is an insult to them, so I have to explain further - this is a result of systemic sexism starting at early childhood. It starts with what toys children are given to play with. It continues via socialization in schools. It's propagated via every surprised face when a woman shows up to learn about technology. No individual person involved in the process might have any malice at all. It's the result of entire systems of behavior, no individual part of which can be described as "the problem". You might call it systemic sexism.

You don't have to be able to explain the entire method of operation to see the result. Is there a statistical difference in outcomes between groups that isn't explained by a difference between the groups? Then there's a systemic bias at work.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#323

Post by lotophage »

whoevercares wrote: post #190

I observed it multiple times during CS graduate school. An Indian high caste classmate refused to let his roommate sleep in the same bedroom. The higher caste guy told us that his roommate is of lower caste. The other poor guy ended up very obedient and sleep in the couch for 2 years. They have a group of high caste guys and talk sht about a few fellow low caste guys in the class Eye opening.

That's horrible

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#324

Post by havblue »

delecti wrote: post #276
jonnycomputer wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is QA lower tier work in most places? Isn't that bass-ackwards?

It is definitely viewed as lower tier, which is unfortunate because it's incredibly valuable.

While it pays less I don't think I'd ever state that it's "lower tier". If QA is an integral part of your process, that the customer pays for, then you don't disparage people doing the necessary work.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#325

Post by drewcoo »

walkhour wrote: post #258
lyaa wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least partly. When I was starting out, I would apply to dev positions only to get offers to interview for lower-paid QA positions. After changing to a gender-neutral nickname and removing all female-identifying terms from my resume, I got the interviews for dev positions.

You claim "at least partly" and then proceed to prove it with anecdotal evidence. You'd need to prove it with a study similar to the ones that send identical CVs to companies, just changing one thing, which is what they want to discover if there's bias against.

No.

A single anecdote is sufficient to merit "at least partly."

You can say it's not generally proved. But it also wasn't a universal claim.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#326

Post by avensec »

wolverine876 wrote: post #305
avensec wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Director-Level in Engineering/QA/Quality Engineering. I currently lead a team where our ratio of Female Indian women is higher than any other engineering group at the company. Every Quality Engineering team I have been apart of has had a higher ratio of females, but not necessarily of any specific background. My N=1 experience is that this can be related, but not always directly about discrimination or sexism.…

I know nothing about the parent or their experience [edit: and thanks to the parent for posting this]. I do know that commonly, people in positions of power (managers or people in the majority) believe the following but it's often not true; that is, the signal is always same, but not the reality. That is, the signal is meaningless as an indicator of the underlying situation, but when I find myself thinking it, it is…

As the parent, just wanted to give a quick reply with thanks.

My reply here is meta given the topic, but I almost didn't submit my original comment because I've seen how these threads go. Any additional information in my comment would lead to even more complexity/areas to pick apart. Less information becomes easy targets for flame. I can understand why the talk was pulled, because they often seem to result in negative PR, more than any potential positive influence. I felt the same with submitting my comment.

Thank you for offering positive suggestions and discussion to the topic.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#327

Post by delecti »

bena wrote: post #319
delecti wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely viewed as lower tier, which is unfortunate because it's incredibly valuable.

Something can be both. Incredibly low-skilled and easy yet valuable.

I said QA is viewed as lower tier, not less skilled. QA, especially SDET style QA, is plenty difficult, but gets very little respect.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#328

Post by hef19898 »

vijaybritto wrote: post #309
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating, thanks. What's the closest parallel in the Western world?

I'm afraid there is none. Also its better if people from the west do not try to draw parallels with their experiences and culture. It simply doesn't match. This would help you understand the caste system and once you do, you would literally see it in any place where Indians live/work. The revelations would be mind boggling for sure. For ex, if there are a bunch of Indians in a work place and a few of them are from lo…

Any suggestions on how an European can tackle this? I now have quite a bunch of Indian collegues, and while I know what the caste system is and how it sucks, it is all just theory for me. If women are cut short in meetings I see it and can do something. If all Indians are excluded, or all Blacks, Asians,..., I see it and can do sometjing. Well, in theory. But of it is only affecting a sub-set of a group that is completely indistinguishable from the rest, it gets close to impossible. Plus, it feels like a really sensitive topic. Just wondering, not that I encountered a situation like that so far, or rather not that I saw one for what it was.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#329

Post by [deleted] »

NoGravitas wrote: post #91

As a leftist, one of the things that gives me pause about identity politics and the language of identity divorced from class struggle is how easily it is repurposed by reactionaries: > But Google employees began spreading disinformation, calling her “Hindu-phobic” and “anti-Hindu” in emails to the company’s leaders, documents posted on Google’s intranet and mailing lists with thousands of employees. I don't have a so…

[deleted]

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#330

Post by [deleted] »

bko wrote: post #10

Do we need every mega-corporation to weigh in on every social issue globally? The thing I like most about work is that its a relatively diverse group of people working together on shared goal. People have known for a long time that work should be professional and you should avoid politics and religion. But I guess people have to relearn these lessons every few decades.

[deleted]
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