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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#261

Post by danso »

yalogin wrote: post #118

The talk should have allowed to go through. The post I think said it right, people wanted to shut it down and the only way to do it is to discredit the speaker because they know there is truth to the arguments. However we should step back and think about how important it in the American context. What purpose is that talk going to serve? I don’t know if it does anything other than satisfying esoteric learning needs of…

Google is the largest purveyor of information across the world. Having policies that deal with caste would seem to require making its American employees and managers aware and mindful of it, no?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#262

Post by 0des »

kleinsch wrote: post #159
salawat wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which would give grounds on the hiring manager front for investigating one's employer for de-facto blacklisting. Which is illegal. Just because someone points out the elrphant in the room at a workplace does not make them "radioactive". Quite the opposite. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Only if someone is dumb enough to document in an email they’re firing her for speaking out. In the real world if you spend your whole workday investigating and criticizing your employer, you’ll eventually no longer work there. They’ll find cases where you missed deadlines, bad performance reviews, etc.

A criminal attorney once said: If you can say it, don't write it. If you can communicate it without saying it, then don't speak it at all.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#263

Post by me_me_mu_mu »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #245
oofbey wrote: post #241

Google’s culture is dominated by arrogance. Management repeatedly tells employees they work on the world’s hardest problems using the world’s biggest computers and the world’s smartest people. Doing anything less is “ungoogley”. It doesn’t necessarily follow that this would encourage racism. But it sure isn’t surprising.

Why would you assume "best" = "racist"? Also - which companies are saying they hire the worst people? I've worked at several companies - every single one of them claimed to hire the best. It's just corporate psychobabble at this point.

I’ll bite with anecdotal pov. I think most of the people who are the “best” are advantaged from the beginning. Whether it is attending prep schools (40k a year or more private school for 12 years), having a home (not moving multiple times, sometimes in a year over many years), or honestly having the familial backing to “take risks”.

The last point is so wild when I hear it from some VCs or successful CEO. It’s easy to take a risk when your parents and family are loaded, even if you have nothing to your name at the time. It’s easy to say such things when your parents are doctors or entrepreneurs who put you through private school and then you got into Stanford. I’m sure they’re smart, but they bought their way in when you reduce it. Sure they took it from 20-100, but many people can barely get from 1-10 due to socioeconomic circumstances. I respect the people who manage to go from 1-100 way more than someone who was bound to be reasonably successful at worst from birth.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#264

Post by otterley »

zionic wrote: post #166
the_only_law wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I saw a big thread related to the topic there were super deeper threads of people just straight up calling each other slurs. They probably would have been flagged, but the threads were just so deep you wouldn’t see that unless you’re intently following the thread.

>Last time I saw a big thread related to the topic there were super deeper threads of people just straight up calling each other slurs. I hope you didn't take my comment is advocating for that. I can't really comment on a thread I didn't see. >They probably would have been flagged, but the threads were just so deep you wouldn’t see that unless you’re intently following the thread. Sounds like pointless name calling.…

I disagree. It is permitted, but it’s important to tread carefully and have a nuanced discussion that is respectful of other points of view.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#265

Post by walkhour »

lexapro wrote: post #37
sitkack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just caste discrimination, but also sexism. I have worked at least three companies where if there were Indian women, the vast majority were in QA.

There seem to be more women in QA in general. Genuinely asking: Is this also sexism?

The truth is that there are no studies (that I'm aware of) that research into whether there's sexism in QA. So the answers to your question are going to be filled with speculation.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#266

Post by rayiner »

kbelder wrote: post #250
thereddaikon wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word you are looking for is bigotry. That's the generalized equivalent of racism. Thing is, bigotry in general isn't illegal. Specific kinds of bigotry are in regards to hiring though. Racism is one of them. But caste isn't. A lawyer might be able to make the claim that it would fall under "national origin or ancestry" since, to my knowledge, caste is hereditary and hard to change. But if so then that makes these…

Caste is inherited and runs in bloodlines. Why wouldn't it be considered racism?

Being hereditary is necessary but not sufficient for a grouping to constitute a race. Blond hair and blue eyes are hereditary, but blue eyed people aren’t a different race.

“Race” is a fuzzy concept but generally distinguishes people of different ethnic origins. Indian castes aren’t different races—low caste and high caste Indians can come from the same ethnic group. It’s more like the European distinction between nobility and commoners. That’s also hereditary, but it doesn’t define different races.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#267

Post by zach_garwood »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #245
oofbey wrote: post #241

Google’s culture is dominated by arrogance. Management repeatedly tells employees they work on the world’s hardest problems using the world’s biggest computers and the world’s smartest people. Doing anything less is “ungoogley”. It doesn’t necessarily follow that this would encourage racism. But it sure isn’t surprising.

Why would you assume "best" = "racist"? Also - which companies are saying they hire the worst people? I've worked at several companies - every single one of them claimed to hire the best. It's just corporate psychobabble at this point.

Racists tend to be ethno-supremecists, ie they think they belong to the "best" race.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#268

Post by jonnycomputer »

sitkack wrote: post #14
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

A good read for some additional context on caste discrimination in the American tech industry: https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidde...

Not just caste discrimination, but also sexism. I have worked at least three companies where if there were Indian women, the vast majority were in QA.

Is QA lower tier work in most places? Isn't that bass-ackwards?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#269

Post by chrismorgan »

alex_smart wrote: post #204
Vaslo wrote: post #65

Question from a layman. How does one know that someone is from another caste? If I was someone from India, how would I know what caste my fellow Indian is from? Is there some kind of code? Or where you are from?

Usually you know someone's caste from their last name. I am someone who was not given a caste-based last name because my parents were influenced by a regional movement against caste. (I didn't even have a last name to begin with but eventually added a non caste-based one to avoid visa issues.) Whenever I traveled by train and chatted up with a co-passenger, almost surely they would ask my name and would never be sati…

I’m curious: would you say the absence of a surname implied anything about caste? I’ve dealt with the children of people with leprosy (mostly SC, with a little ST and OBC) in the vicinity of Hyderabad, and it wasn’t dreadfully uncommon for their parents or grandparents to have no surname on their Aadhaar card, at least, and perhaps even a few of the children.

(In Telangana, surnames are almost exclusively used as just an initial preceding the given name, and sometimes that’s even all that ends up on official documentation.)

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#270

Post by mariodiana »

> In April, Thenmozhi Soundararajan […] was scheduled to give a talk to Google News employees for Dalit History Month. But Google employees began spreading disinformation […]

That is not journalism. That's editorializing — and in the very first paragraph, no less. This is how media like the Washington Post encourages a kind of caste of its own, by signaling "right-think" to its readers.

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