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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#231

Post by alex_smart »

ralmidani wrote: post #54
inglor_cz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add "Muslim/Kafir" to the list. And Sunni/Shi'a.

Bad analogy. A person’s deeply-held belief that a given religion is true, and calling others to that belief, is not the same as saying “you were born of a lower caste and should never be able to escape that.” Of course, it goes without saying, perceiving you belong to the true faith does not justify violence or discrimination. But faith-based identification is not analogous to a caste system.

Are we going to lightly dismiss the prosecution of polytheists in many Islamic countries?

>Of course, it goes without saying, perceiving you belong to the true faith does not justify violence or discrimination. But faith-based identification is not analogous to a caste system.

They were clearly talking about faith-based discrimination. Why would you assume that they were talking about faith-based identification, especially given the context?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#232

Post by selfhifive »

Vaslo wrote: post #65

Question from a layman. How does one know that someone is from another caste? If I was someone from India, how would I know what caste my fellow Indian is from? Is there some kind of code? Or where you are from?

That problem and increasing intercaste marriages is why casteism is dying in many parts of India. The new generation doesn't know how to determine the caste and are generally not interested. Most of the system in large parts of the country will die out with the previous generation.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#233

Post by ffggvv »

yalogin wrote: post #118

The talk should have allowed to go through. The post I think said it right, people wanted to shut it down and the only way to do it is to discredit the speaker because they know there is truth to the arguments. However we should step back and think about how important it in the American context. What purpose is that talk going to serve? I don’t know if it does anything other than satisfying esoteric learning needs of…

idk woke people are obsessed with protecting very small minority groups. in fact often the smaller the better in terms of virtue signaling points.

so it just goes to show how hypocritical Google is being when they are mega woke on every other facet. probably because their ceo harbors a like for the caste system

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#234

Post by HKH2 »

PhillyG wrote: post #182
HKH2 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when does '-phobia' mean 'hatred'? If I suffer from arachnophobia, do I hate spiders?

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." Edit: It might be a quote from fiction but there's some truth in there somewhere

Fear can lead to aggression, but it doesn't have to; you can be avoidant.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#235

Post by FactolSarin »

yalogin wrote: post #118

The talk should have allowed to go through. The post I think said it right, people wanted to shut it down and the only way to do it is to discredit the speaker because they know there is truth to the arguments. However we should step back and think about how important it in the American context. What purpose is that talk going to serve? I don’t know if it does anything other than satisfying esoteric learning needs of…

Isn't the fact that it got shut down by higher caste Indians proof that the talk is important in some way?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#236

Post by civilized »

bobobob420 wrote: post #230
civilized wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no caste discrimination in US What makes you think you're qualified to make such a blanket statement? Especially since caste discrimination is pervasive in India and immigrants tend to bring their culture with them. I just don't think you could know this, and I wonder what else might be motivating you to make vast generalizations about things you don't know.

Quoted post unavailable.

You're just one person. It's obvious that you don't personally know about caste discrimination in all of the United States. If you had data it would be another matter, but you presented none and I'm pretty sure it's because you have none.

It's not a subjective matter, it's just transparently absurd.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#237

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #38
lolinder wrote: post #15

> “We also made the decision to not move forward with the proposed talk which — rather than bringing our community together and raising awareness — was creating division and rancor,” Newberry wrote. This doesn't surprise me one bit. Even on HN, every thread on this topic turns into a flame war with a bunch of people crying racism/religionism. How dare we discuss something we don't fully understand? How dare we critic…

That quote from the article gave me pause. It sounds like an admission that they wanted the good PR from having a caste bias speaker, but when having a conversation on a difficult topic actually became difficult, they backed down. Maybe, Google, instead of just giving up you should be asking why a speaker on Dalit rights and inclusion is causing "division and rancor" in your community? Or is that also a difficult con…

Whenever differences - actual or imagined - between different groups are discussed, two major things happen.

First, some members of group found at a disadvantage are upset. This is regardless of how many other members of that group express that they themselves are not. You can dispute facts, but you can't deny people's feelings.

Second, the disadvantage is then used by some people to justify something that fits their agenda, prejudices of beliefs, whether it makes sense or not.

So I can hardly blame anyone responsible for managing a huge number of people of avoiding sensitive topics. Besides, a corporation is not exactly the place to discuss these things: they need to be dealt with as a society in general. If you try to introduce these topics into your workplace, you might even achieve the opposite of what you want, because people will do whatever you expect them just to keep their jobs, but won't change their opinion because their manager told them to, or because they attended a workshop where it was explained to them that their culture is inferior, for example.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#238

Post by blueflow »

7952 wrote: post #160
NoGravitas wrote: post #91

As a leftist, one of the things that gives me pause about identity politics and the language of identity divorced from class struggle is how easily it is repurposed by reactionaries: > But Google employees began spreading disinformation, calling her “Hindu-phobic” and “anti-Hindu” in emails to the company’s leaders, documents posted on Google’s intranet and mailing lists with thousands of employees. I don't have a so…

You see weird reaction in debates about feminism. People go along with the belief that men and women are the same. And then use that to justify male anger about unfairness by just parotting the same talking points. When actually feminist could always accept that there were differences and that was the point. But the argument changes at different levels of abstraction. It's confusing. Individuals should be treated the…

People see that "men and women are different" is used as justification for prejudice (like a person not getting a chance because people of the same sex did rarely have success previously). Which sucks and people feel its unfair. And when trying to conceptualize that unfairness into words, their contra opinion sometimes ends up being "so man and women must be equal" instead of "a persons sex does not justify prejudice".

Peoples feelings about fairness and justice are always valid, but hell, many people suck so hard at putting it into words.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#239

Post by [deleted] »

car_analogy wrote: post #127
mrcartmeneses wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you dismiss Martin Luther King as an “activist”? But your point is in some ways valid, as it’s important to be able to see Israel through the lens of colonialism and to show that the state’s brutality applied to brown people of all faiths, including Jews. I also find it really strange that any criticism of Israel is labelled as anti-Semitic. I actually think equating the brutal behaviour of the Israeli governme…

> The Tora has exactly zero passages about it being OK to murder children Now, go and crush Amalek; put him under the curse of destruction with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. - 1 Samuel 15 That's one example. The old testament claims God commanded the total extermination of multiple nations competing with the Israelites [1]. This ext…

[deleted]

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#240

Post by sashu123 »

sumedh wrote: post #100
Vaslo wrote: post #65

Question from a layman. How does one know that someone is from another caste? If I was someone from India, how would I know what caste my fellow Indian is from? Is there some kind of code? Or where you are from?

Your parents tell you your caste. You can also get a caste certificate from you local municipal office which helps you take advantage of some perks if you belong to a "lower" class. Generally you wont be able to figure the caste of someone but there are clues like skin color, fairer skin generally is "upper" caste, sometimes your surname also gives away your caste. Unfortunately some Indians specially from the "upper…

fair skin thing is nonsense. I'm a Tamil Brahmin (Brahmin being the highest caste) and I'm one of the darkest skinned people in India. Most of my friends are far darker than most Indians from North India. It's much easier to identify through surname (Pichai I'm pretty sure is a brahmin surname), but certain states like Tamil Nadu banned surnames for this reason. If people ask me my surname, it is T. Every government document has T as my surname, I just go with that
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