Live data from Hacker News

How to make decisions like a poker player

fronterablog.com

11–20 of 156 posts

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#11
I'm a serious but hobbyist player with ~15k hands last month.

The thinking like a poker player is mostly about being upfront about your risk tolerances and then having a culture supporting people who make the best risk adjusted decision, even if it doesn't work out.

Expected Value is complicated because a 50% chance for $100 is the same as a 10% chance at $1000. It's the variance, not the EV that makes a lot of decisions hard.

You (and businesses) need to decide what risk is acceptable, communicate that clearly. Reward people who manage risk in a way that's aligned with the business even when it doesn't work out. Get rid of people who are either take too big risks, and people who don't take risks.

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#12

I'm struggling to see how the advice applies to their own examples. Take Jane, who took a great offer but was hit by a recession: - potential reward of the decision: checks out - probability of getting it: 95% if you already have the offer in hand - resources (time/effort/money) to bet to get the reward: not significant Then there is 'imagining a bet' and 'analysing your past failures'. The first one might lead you t…

I think like a poker player, I skimmed the article. What they seem to fail to mention is that variance is important as well. In poker you need to play at least 10000 hands in order for variance to average down a bit. 10000 hands is still very little. So, if you have a 95% chance of going 10x that's great, but the question is: can you handle a 5% chance of having being potentially ruined for at least a decade? If not,…

> Put more extremely, if I offer you a 99% chance to take make one billion dollars (legally) and a 1% chance of being killed, would you take it? I definitely wouldn't.

I would even if it offered 50+% of getting killed. The small chance you strike a billion is worth the risk.

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#13
post #7

I've also heard this topic referred to as "results-oriented thinking," which is generally what you don't want: you shouldn't judge a decision based on its result, but on the information you had at the time. The key to this idea, which I don't see covered in the blog post, for making future decisions is that you shouldn't let past bad luck affect your future decisions. If you lose a positive EV bet, it shouldn't shy y…

> Not investing in ETFs after being burned by past downturns Helloooo Japan! ETFs are great, it will never happen to the US economy :) In other words, based on market behavior from multiple countries, it is definitely a possibility that ETFs won't return much in a period of 30 to 40 years.

And what's your alternative? Cash under the mattress gets killed by inflation. Gold has its runs but usually underperforms. Bonds also get killed in a downturn.

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#14
The non buzzwordy way to express this is to use some basic concepts in probability to make accurate decisions in the face of randomness. Specifically when making a decision you should think about the expectation[1] of the outcomes overall and some properties of the distribution. This requires you to think through what all the outcomes are and what you think their probabilities are.

1)All other things being equal you should generally prefer a higher expectation decision to a lower-expectation one

2)But you have to avoid decisions which have outcome distribution properties you can't tolerate. Most obviously you should generally ensure that your risk of ruin is zero because even if the probability is very low, that outcome is close to impossible to recover from so must be avoided.

3)For two possible strategies with similar-ish expectations in real-life terms you may well want to choose the one with the lower standard deviation of payoffs. Like say you're choosing between an offer at medical school to train to be a dentist and pursuing your long-shot idea of going to Hollywood and trying to make it as an actor. Imagine that when you look at the outcomes you estimate that in acting you have an insanely low probability of making it but a huge payoff if you do and in dentistry most people do pretty well but no-one's partying on superyachts with Jay-Z and Beyonce. Well even if the expectation of acting works out slightly higher, if they are close enough you should probably pick dentistry because the variance of outcomes is just way lower. If you think about your future as a monte carlo simulation you want to end up "ok" on most of the paths in the simulation even if that means giving up on some "lights out" outcomes.

4)most people agonise the most about decisions where the expectation is really pretty similar so it just doesn't matter that much either way. So don't beat yourself up about whether you made the right decision - just try to learn from the decision and move forward

A huge mistake people make is to evaluate the quality of the decision based on the single possible outcome that crystalised into reality by actually happening rather than using the framework above. So resist that temptation and instead evaluate your decision based on whether you chose to maximise expectation while avoiding risk of ruin and excessive variance.

[1]In the sense of being the weighted average of all possible payoffs where the weights are the probabilities and the payoffs are the utility of each outcome (usually just in cash terms).

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#15
post #7

I've also heard this topic referred to as "results-oriented thinking," which is generally what you don't want: you shouldn't judge a decision based on its result, but on the information you had at the time. The key to this idea, which I don't see covered in the blog post, for making future decisions is that you shouldn't let past bad luck affect your future decisions. If you lose a positive EV bet, it shouldn't shy y…

Results-oriented thinking is bad, but so is not updating your priors.

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#16

I've found that frequently bluffing in life pays off. Generally you don't get caught very often and the cost of getting caught generally isn't very high, even if the stakes are. You have to be prepared to take your way out of sticky situations though.

Could you give an example of this?

Not OP.

I've seen many people getting a 3 year contract without having a clue of what they had to do, just buzz words.

Public sector

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#17
post #11

I'm a serious but hobbyist player with ~15k hands last month. The thinking like a poker player is mostly about being upfront about your risk tolerances and then having a culture supporting people who make the best risk adjusted decision, even if it doesn't work out. Expected Value is complicated because a 50% chance for $100 is the same as a 10% chance at $1000. It's the variance, not the EV that makes a lot of decis…

"Expected Value is complicated because a 50% chance for $100 is the same as a 10% chance at $1000"

Is it though?

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#18

I'm struggling to see how the advice applies to their own examples. Take Jane, who took a great offer but was hit by a recession: - potential reward of the decision: checks out - probability of getting it: 95% if you already have the offer in hand - resources (time/effort/money) to bet to get the reward: not significant Then there is 'imagining a bet' and 'analysing your past failures'. The first one might lead you t…

I don't think the advice doesn't apply (they still claim Jane made a good decision, even though it led to a bad outcome: their point is that Jane should keep making good decisions, and not worry about bad outcomes because you can't control luck — if you mostly make good decisions, luck won't matter in the long run), it's just that it's pretty much useless because

> "Probability of getting it — you cannot know the exact probability, but estimate it the best way you can (remember the bet with a friend)"

is the hard part. Jane's case was clear (good decision), but what about Mike? Is there a proportion of his savings he should have invested that would have turned his "bad decision" into a "good one"? We have no signal to tell us what the probability of any cryptocurrency going up or down is over, say, 6 months (they've all gone up and down completely arbitrarily). Basically, finding the probability of any particular "success" (or actually, a failure) will easily tell you how much you should risk.

And that's what it's like with the most of life decisions as well: we don't know the probability — not even the ballpark range. Likelihood that any one person you meet is going to be your life-long partner is basically nil: but we still invest in building relationships before fully committing to either decide they are not, or increase the probability that they will be. But we still do that relationship building investment based on very few signals (appearance, short chats and potentially what social circle someone is from if from a shared acquaintance).

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#19

I'm struggling to see how the advice applies to their own examples. Take Jane, who took a great offer but was hit by a recession: - potential reward of the decision: checks out - probability of getting it: 95% if you already have the offer in hand - resources (time/effort/money) to bet to get the reward: not significant Then there is 'imagining a bet' and 'analysing your past failures'. The first one might lead you t…

I think like a poker player, I skimmed the article. What they seem to fail to mention is that variance is important as well. In poker you need to play at least 10000 hands in order for variance to average down a bit. 10000 hands is still very little. So, if you have a 95% chance of going 10x that's great, but the question is: can you handle a 5% chance of having being potentially ruined for at least a decade? If not,…

> How about the following? I offer you an unfair coin flip advantage of 51% versus 49%

Isn't that just baccarat without ties?

Re: How to make decisions like a poker player

#20
post #11

I'm a serious but hobbyist player with ~15k hands last month. The thinking like a poker player is mostly about being upfront about your risk tolerances and then having a culture supporting people who make the best risk adjusted decision, even if it doesn't work out. Expected Value is complicated because a 50% chance for $100 is the same as a 10% chance at $1000. It's the variance, not the EV that makes a lot of decis…

Wow this is 1000x than what’s in the article - thanks.
Post reply on HN