Reading the comments here validates my experience. When K8s was pitched as a way to make this all run smoothly, I thought, "Great! I'll write my code, specify what gets deployed and how many times, and it'll Just Work(tm)." I built a service which had one driver node and three workers. Nothing big. It deployed Dask to parallelize some compute. The workload was typically ~30 seconds of burst compute with some pretty m…
Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
371–380 of 433 posts
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#372Economics says that as something becomes cheaper, demand increases.
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#373Kubernetes is a Google scale solution. Lots of teams said “hey if Google does it then it must be good!”…but forgot that they didn’t have the scale. It caught on so much that for whatever reason it’s now the horrendous default. I’ve worked on at least 3 consulting projects that incorporated K8s and it slowed everything down and took way too much time, and we got nothing in return - because those projects only needed s…
> Kubernetes is a Google scale solution The problem is that its _not_ a google scale solution. Its something that _looks_ like a google scale solution, but is like a movie set compared to the real thing. for example: https://kubernetes.io/docs/setup/best-practices/cluster-larg... no more than 5k nodes. Its extra ordinarily chatty at that scale, which means it;ll cost on inter-vpc traffic. I also strongly suspect that…
K8s is a "middle 80%" scale solution. Its not made to run Google (though Google uses it a ton internally). Its also not made for your average four person startup (though, if you've got that experience internally, its not a bad choice; its not Heroku, but its better than a lot of deployment options out there).
All I'd say is: I've worked in a "scale-up" B2B org under $1M in ARR. We were pretty monolithic; just a backend NodeJS app, and a frontend SSR React app, basic. Five engineers by the time I left. We used K8s (EKS+Fargate). Maybe 50 pods total, across two environments. It was fantastic. We never had to say No to any weird customer, product, or engineering decision which would be difficult in either more managed, or more legacy, systems. Customer wants a custom domain and'll pay $50k for it? Like five lines of YAML and update Route 53, done. Datadog sidecar container so we can ingest some APM traces? Ten lines of YAML copy-pasted from their docs, done. Update the cluster? Click one button in the AWS UI. Every developer wants their own staging environment? Ok, bit more work, but: create some namespaces, retool the CI a bit, we can deploy separate databases in there as well its only staging, actually pretty straightforward.
Half the stuff we did with k8s would have taken three times as long with more native AWS solutions, and some of it probably would have been impossible on something like Heroku. K8s strikes a balance. Its not the simplest thing in the world. I wouldn't grab it on day 1 of a startup's engineering journey. But I wouldn't knock a startup who does.
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Kubernetes is a Google scale solution The problem is that its _not_ a google scale solution. Its something that _looks_ like a google scale solution, but is like a movie set compared to the real thing. for example: https://kubernetes.io/docs/setup/best-practices/cluster-larg... no more than 5k nodes. Its extra ordinarily chatty at that scale, which means it;ll cost on inter-vpc traffic. I also strongly suspect that…
Yeah, I don't know if it's because ECS was my first container orchestration experience but every time I look at teams trying to do k8s on AWS I think how much easier ECS would be.
An argument could be made for something like CodeDeploy being better integrated on ECS, but that's more of a "k8s doesn't need CodeDeploy but ECS might" kind of thing. And even then, I wouldn't touch it.
An argument could also be made that upgrading ECS clusters is a bit easier, as the cluster itself, uh, doesn't have a "version". But on Fargate, its pretty painless on EKS, and Fargate ECS tasks do have a "platform version" that generally doesn't have to be worried about (version: LATEST), but is nonzero nonetheless.
Which is really to say that both ECS and EKS puke complexity, because its AWS, but the volume is pretty similar.
[1] https://docs.aws.amazon.com/eks/latest/userguide/aws-load-ba...
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I don't know if it's because ECS was my first container orchestration experience but every time I look at teams trying to do k8s on AWS I think how much easier ECS would be.
The complexity difference between bog-standard ECS+Fargate and EKS+Fargate deployments rounds down pretty small. Biggest I've seen: ALB integration, IAM integration, and maybe certificate management. Most of that stuff is out-of-box on ECS, but on EKS you need some extra containers or configuration to watch the K8s API and provision stuff for you (if you want to use it; you can also just go pure-k8s) (edit: just to b…
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#376A lot of companies moved to the cloud because their old data centers (or hosts) were driven by ticket systems instead of API's and access management. What took three weeks was now solved in seconds; the beginning was fascinating without a doubt. Then companies realized they owned none of this virtualized infrastructure and were at the behest of a very large corporation who could make sweeping changes with little to no notice. Although Kubernetes was pitched as providing extra grease to the gears of the enterprise, and they weren't wrong, that is not its total value to the enterprise.
The real value in Kubernetes running your own platform on someone elses hardware, especially to the degree where you can eventually free yourself from cloud provider lock-in that the above incurred. An example, if a company can spin up a team to create a database-as-a-service in Kubernetes clusters, then your RDS costs can shift dramatically down, and it develops a new level of capability and understanding that your company never had before.
I'm a SRE-SE, but I mostly use the title "Distributed Systems Software Engineer" because I feel that really fits what I do. DevOps is just a catch-all title for non-application-software tasks and roles at this point because it consumed so many things like "release manager", "QA", "application operations", etc... Personally, I do not trust companies or teams that use this as some sort of distinguishable title.
To answer the last part of your question, "Why are DevOps everywhere", because companies have diverse needs in terms of supporting software and software development, and DevOps is basically the catch all email of software engineering.
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#377Reading the comments here validates my experience. When K8s was pitched as a way to make this all run smoothly, I thought, "Great! I'll write my code, specify what gets deployed and how many times, and it'll Just Work(tm)." I built a service which had one driver node and three workers. Nothing big. It deployed Dask to parallelize some compute. The workload was typically ~30 seconds of burst compute with some pretty m…
This can probably be chalked up to youre-doing-it-wrong (sorry) but not knowing your precise scenario, it's hard to know what went wrong. Maybe really old versions misbehaved (only started a few years ago and its been smooth sailing), but I've never seen your problem on any of our stuff and we have dozens of different services on a bunch of languages/frameworks, and none of them just give up for no reason ( though a…
Yes, and the unforgiving part of k8s is that there is a right way documented somewhere, you might have just spent 3 days sifting through docs and posts and community forums to find it.
It's sometimes worth it, sometimes not, my main gripe with k8s would just be that there is no "simple things" and it shouldn't be pitched as making it easier for small shops. Even if a small use case can be done elegantly, it will probably require a pretty comprehensive and up to date knowledge of the whole system to keep that elegance.
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#378Kubernetes is a Google scale solution. Lots of teams said “hey if Google does it then it must be good!”…but forgot that they didn’t have the scale. It caught on so much that for whatever reason it’s now the horrendous default. I’ve worked on at least 3 consulting projects that incorporated K8s and it slowed everything down and took way too much time, and we got nothing in return - because those projects only needed s…
> Kubernetes is a Google scale solution The problem is that its _not_ a google scale solution. Its something that _looks_ like a google scale solution, but is like a movie set compared to the real thing. for example: https://kubernetes.io/docs/setup/best-practices/cluster-larg... no more than 5k nodes. Its extra ordinarily chatty at that scale, which means it;ll cost on inter-vpc traffic. I also strongly suspect that…
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#379Kubernetes is a Google scale solution. Lots of teams said “hey if Google does it then it must be good!”…but forgot that they didn’t have the scale. It caught on so much that for whatever reason it’s now the horrendous default. I’ve worked on at least 3 consulting projects that incorporated K8s and it slowed everything down and took way too much time, and we got nothing in return - because those projects only needed s…
> Kubernetes is a Google scale solution The problem is that its _not_ a google scale solution. Its something that _looks_ like a google scale solution, but is like a movie set compared to the real thing. for example: https://kubernetes.io/docs/setup/best-practices/cluster-larg... no more than 5k nodes. Its extra ordinarily chatty at that scale, which means it;ll cost on inter-vpc traffic. I also strongly suspect that…
The fundamental design just isn't infinitely scalable, and at a certain point, you might rather have some bulkheads/autonomy or regional diversity.
Re: Ask HN: If Kubernetes is the solution, why are there so many DevOps jobs?
#380> 1) internal users: mainly developers by providing CI/CD > 2) external users: end users > > Nowadays we call people that do 1) DevOps and people that do > 2) SREs (so one could argue that the role of sys admins just > got more specialized). Both are called sysadmins. SRE is a specialized software engineering role -- you'd hire SREs if you wanted to create something like Kubernetes in-house, or do extensive customiza…
> DevOps is the idea that there shouldn't be separate "dev" and "ops" organizations, I agree with this definition of DevOps. However the vast, vast, vaaaast majority of real life uses of the term "DevOps" I've seen are just rebranded sysadmins. Sometimes it at least implies a more engineering approach to their coding. But in these institutions the Devs and Ops are very much separate groups of people, unfortunately.