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Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

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Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#171

Post by the_only_law »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #89
the_only_law wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to keep the clip as a joke, because I was constantly going into the office early so I could get some work done before the constant chatter. https://youtube.com/shorts/4whlr2dVDws?feature=share

I did the same and I barely function before the sun is up. Got a solid 1-2 hours in doing way better work than the hours spent not half asleep but with the noise. Was able to do it the other way around a few times and found my late hours were even better, but managers were a little eager to apprehend me for coming in "late".

Yes I might think about finding a job on the other end of the country, that would allow me a sleep schedule that feels less forced.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#172

Post by angarg12 »

colechristensen wrote: post #65
angarg12 wrote: post #23

All of my career I prioritized short commutes, which led to living in tiny apartments (as small as 25 sqmt) within a short commute from work. When Covid hit we had just moved to a new 1 bed flat and were paying our highest rent yet, but hey, 15 minutes commute! When it became evident we were in for the long haul we started looking to move again. We ended up moving to a 3 bed house with garden in a tiny village close…

Everyone on HN who loves urban density should read things like this. Quality of life cooped up in a dense urban setting, especially with a family, is awful. There's so much space in the world, we don't need to pack ourselves in tiny urban centers near "tech hubs" at all.

But I do love urban density! I grew up and lived 90% of my life in big cities. Moving to a village was a big shift for me. I love the space but I also appreciate it's boring AF.

If I could choose I'd probably go for a house, not as big, within 1 hour trip to a big city. That way I could get the best balance for my lifestyle.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#173

Post by angarg12 »

wffurr wrote: post #91
colechristensen wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone on HN who loves urban density should read things like this. Quality of life cooped up in a dense urban setting, especially with a family, is awful. There's so much space in the world, we don't need to pack ourselves in tiny urban centers near "tech hubs" at all.

"closer to family" seemed like a big part of the improvement here.

We got a winner!

We moved to the countryside to be closer to my wife's family. My family lives in a big city in another country, so we could have moved there instead, if that didn't involve a massive pay cut.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#174

Post by guenthert »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #51
Johnny555 wrote: post #6

That's one reason for sure, but even if my house was a 10 minute walk from the office, I'd still rather only go in for meetings. At home I have my own private office with a nice view. I have a nice set of speakers and can play any music I like. If I want to go for a walk, I'm in a quiet suburban neighborhood with hiking trails nearby. The kitchen is always stocked with snacks I like plus freshly prepared healthy lunc…

>There's enough background noise in the open office that I keep headphones on most of the time while I'm at my desk. I still don't get how we as a species went "this is fine". The complete loss of audiovisual privacy is such an immense drain. I'll buy the "being close together works better" argument, but I still can't grasp how that offsets all the distractions in the modern office.

> I'll buy the "being close together works better" argument

No, it's some real estate agents convincing spineless C-level execs that they need a new office because Facebook did it. Having a small team, say less than 8 in the same sufficiently large room may work great, assuming that synergy translates to 30+ people who neither know nor care for each other is beyond daft.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#175

Post by Johnny555 »

zer0-c00l wrote: post #138
rhino369 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cubicals were much better but they were "lame" and "soulless."

agreed. My favorite office environment was a cube farm, and I’d argue that it was less “soulless” than the myriad open offices I’ve worked at since because people actually personalized their spaces.

I hated cubicle offices back in the days when I had one -- and we had the nice high cubes that you couldn't easily see over. It didn't offer much auditory privacy (I could easily hear coworker's calls), and limited real privacy since it had no door and anyone could stand on their toes and peer over the top. But at least I had my own personal space, I could pin photos to the wall and make it my own.

Now when I go to the office, I sit in a row of 6 desks, with nothing blocking me from the person in front of me but a monitor, I long for the days of cubicles

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#176

Post by screye »

colechristensen wrote: post #65
angarg12 wrote: post #23

All of my career I prioritized short commutes, which led to living in tiny apartments (as small as 25 sqmt) within a short commute from work. When Covid hit we had just moved to a new 1 bed flat and were paying our highest rent yet, but hey, 15 minutes commute! When it became evident we were in for the long haul we started looking to move again. We ended up moving to a 3 bed house with garden in a tiny village close…

Everyone on HN who loves urban density should read things like this. Quality of life cooped up in a dense urban setting, especially with a family, is awful. There's so much space in the world, we don't need to pack ourselves in tiny urban centers near "tech hubs" at all.

Both are the exact same problem.

Most of the US has outlawed the 'middle housing' [1], leaving us with massive crammed skyscraper concrete jungles or sprawling suburbia.

Cities in developed countries around the world do not have to made this trade-off between space and walkability. Apartments are sufficiently big for families, while having everything within arms reach.

If anything, public spaces allow for more amenities available for more people. Unless your definition of space is 'private' space (private gardens, private yards, private gyms), there is plenty of space in well planned cities.

Lastly, suburbs simply do not pay their fair share in taxes. [2] They are incredibly inefficient and deplete city resources such that the city goes bankrupt the second a recession hits. I would be fine with suburbs if that's what people want. But, pay your fair share in taxes, renounce any high ground on the climate change debate and for the love of God, stop making anything that isn't a suburb illegal to build. (looking at you Berkeley...and every other deep-blue liberal suburb)

[1] https://missingmiddlehousing.com/

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#177

Post by screye »

criddell wrote: post #115
kibwen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up with one parent in the burbs and the other in the boonies, and today I live in a city and I'll never go back to anywhere that isn't eminently walkable. I don't value space, I value proximity to lots of people. I'm happy that WFH allows people who value the opposite to vacate the cities that make them miserable in order to free up room for people who crave density.

For me, what I want has changed a lot over my life. In my 20's I craved density. I loved the energy and options of cities. 30 years later, I'm the opposite. I live in the suburbs in a house big enough to give me a home gym, workshop, office, etc... but if I had a self-driving car and could get great internet, I'd move way out of the city. I want a little more space and a lot less noise.

> lot less noise.

Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud [1]

Having lived in many different types of cities, it is always the car-centric downtowns and suburban main-streets that are loudest. Well designed & walkable cities are actually pretty mild when it comes to noise.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#178

Post by nevermindiguess »

Does anyone else think that those wanting to work fully remotely, should just become contractors and offer their services to companies? Forgo also job security (in those countries that offer that) and all other benefits associated with being a permanent employee? To me the work arrangement they describe fits well with contracting work and little with “joining” a company. I feel that it is unfair to have both. Contractors’ work by definition is unsupervised and they use their own tools. Joining a company full time means being part of the team, meeting your colleagues in the office, sharing the journey and feeling part of it. It can also include remote work but not as an absolute right that the company must provide.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#179

Post by criddell »

kibwen wrote: post #168
criddell wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, what I want has changed a lot over my life. In my 20's I craved density. I loved the energy and options of cities. 30 years later, I'm the opposite. I live in the suburbs in a house big enough to give me a home gym, workshop, office, etc... but if I had a self-driving car and could get great internet, I'd move way out of the city. I want a little more space and a lot less noise.

Regarding noise, I've told this story before on HN, but the loudest place I've lived was the aforementioned house in the boonies, where the noise from passing trucks and motorcycles at all hours of the night was intolerable. My place in the city is far quieter, ironic given that it's literally a hundred yards or so from a turnpike and a rail line (never once heard the train passing in all these years, somehow). As fo…

Yeah, it's definitely going to be situational. I grew up in rural southwestern Ontario and it was very, very quiet. I moved to a city to go to university and at that time the extra noise didn't bother me (I definitely was responsible for my fair share of it), but I did miss being able to see the night sky.

If I'm honest, a big factor for me is probably related to my financials. When I was young, I was pretty poor and lived in shitty neighborhoods in low quality but high density buildings. Thirty years later, I live in a pretty great suburb in my own house with my best friend/wife, dog and my kids (who are home from university for the summer). The night sky here is decent, but I know it could be even better.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#180

Post by goatcode »

wolverine876 wrote: post #144
goatcode wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in both city and non-city for equal portions of my life, I don't care how "efficient" the commute is (or how inefficient its alternatives are forced to become by those who dislike cars), city life is horrendous. I can't understand why, especially after covid, anyone thinks it's a good idea to lived packed like mice in a concrete box, with only a few trees you don't own and have to share with everyone. No…

> city life is horrendous You find it that way, but obviously others love it. Rather than declaring it, it would be interesting to know what you found to be good and bad about city life.

The things that have made me a better, healthier person are either prohibitively expensive or impossible inside of a city. The things that make me a worse person are often required inside of a city.

Perhaps it's to some extent personal preference, but those preferences grew out of having experienced both settings under discussion. One thing that you can't get around though: getting sick is much easier inside of a city -- this is why I can't understand how many of the same individuals who often are very fond of cities can still be after also being those who are most concerned about pandemics. Research also has shown that ideal human groups are no larger than around 200. Extrapolate that to get an idea of how pathological a city-based culture can become.

If you absorb the full picture painted by the famous "mouse utopia" experiment, you can get some further insight into what, over the course of decades, built my own understanding and perspective on different living modes, especially as both relate to city life. Its goal was to talk about overpopulation, but it more accurately could comment on over-concentrated population.

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