Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty • Hacker News Board

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#61

Post by willcipriano » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #56

willcipriano wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being in the office will be how you get noticed and advance in your career That's a classic move. Businesses could offer a significant premium over remote roles to attract candidates, and could easy afford it if you take their in office productivity claims at face value, but that costs money, much easier to make handwavy, unfalsifiable (at least with the information you have as an employee) claims about how you wil…

I think you're attributing too much intent to the process. Monkeys gonna monkey. As you note, you can do things to try to fight our fundamentally social nature, but it's like fighting the tides.

I'm not complaining that the people in the office are getting promoted faster. Far from it, I hope they get something for all that wasted time.

However I know how promotions tend to go in most companies, and 9/10 you are better off interviewing at another firm and getting promoted that way on a hours worked/pay received basis. With that knowledge I see this as a rather empty incentive.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#62

Post by loloquwowndueo » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

wollsmoth wrote: post #33

Arcanum-XIII wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The magic of open space is the same for me... but without the "perks" (food is pretty horrible from the comment I have, and it's 1 hour of traffic jam to get there). All that to do Teams meeting at my desk, with the noise of my other colleagues also in call. That's, to put it simply, hell. And then you have to be under constant surveillance, "why do you leave so early?" (I've been there for 8 hours already, so, fuck…

There aren't any meeting rooms at your office? I think every place I've been, even the startups had some kind of conference call mic setup on the table, although I don't think every place had a cam. It's possible for the "room" to join the call and those who must join over video.

A conference room full of people is a nightmare for remote meetings - audio quality is horrendous and it’s very hard to make out what people in the speakerphone setup are saying. Everyone having their own headset makes for a much better experience for everyone. Unless the meeting is primarily in person with a few remote participants - then those get left out and have trouble catching up.

Hybrid remote doesn’t work - go either fully on-prem or fully remote.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#63

Post by MrPatan » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

baq wrote: post #7

tetraca wrote: post #4

If you live more than 30 minutes away from the office, and it's self-evident that your physical presence isn't necessary to accomplish your day to day, I don't see why someone wouldn't refuse to come back excepting a few days here and there for a fun communal activity with your team. Especially if they have children.

obviously they wouldn't refuse if they want to keep their job... return to office will be a very convenient way of laying off people without saying you're laying off people. remember an economic slowdown is underway for 2 quarters and will last for quite a bit more.

Ah yes, one of those lay offs where you lose the people who can get a job at the drop of a hat and keep the ones that cannot. But of course, it would be initiated by somebody who wants to work from an office so, yeah, it all fits.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#64

Post by MrPatan » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #10

Employee opposition to commuting ... may require investing in housing, highways, public transportation and other infrastructure necessary to reduce commute times. Yet another benefit for investing in housing and public transportation. Based on my proximity to public transportation, too, I have many job options close by, so I'm not likely to get stuck in a bad spot.

Or just carry on working from home.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#65

Post by colechristensen » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

angarg12 wrote: post #23

All of my career I prioritized short commutes, which led to living in tiny apartments (as small as 25 sqmt) within a short commute from work. When Covid hit we had just moved to a new 1 bed flat and were paying our highest rent yet, but hey, 15 minutes commute! When it became evident we were in for the long haul we started looking to move again. We ended up moving to a 3 bed house with garden in a tiny village close…

Everyone on HN who loves urban density should read things like this. Quality of life cooped up in a dense urban setting, especially with a family, is awful. There's so much space in the world, we don't need to pack ourselves in tiny urban centers near "tech hubs" at all.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#66

Post by havblue » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #36

Johnny555 wrote: post #6

That's one reason for sure, but even if my house was a 10 minute walk from the office, I'd still rather only go in for meetings. At home I have my own private office with a nice view. I have a nice set of speakers and can play any music I like. If I want to go for a walk, I'm in a quiet suburban neighborhood with hiking trails nearby. The kitchen is always stocked with snacks I like plus freshly prepared healthy lunc…

> My commute is less than 30 minutes (one-way) and is a pretty pleasant drive.... it takes an hour out of my day, but it's not the primary reason I don't want to go to the office. Focusing on "reasons why I don't like the office" is missing the point, IMO. A lot of folks are betting on the long-term results of a short-term dislocation, but ignoring why things were as they were before the dislocation. It's sort of lik…

The status quo was never to attempt remote work by default as much as to get employees to be productive even when they're at home, on vacation, when there's bad weather etc.

I agree that the technology have fundamentally changed and that it's difficult for companies to revoke the benefit of working from home after it was granted. I do think the needle has shifted now that there are metrics to support or oppose permanently working from home for specific positions.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#67

Post by colechristensen » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #57

As the exception that proves the rule, I missed my commute terribly and its absence was having a negative impact on me. However, I have a 30 minute bicycle commute, which I think changes everything. The daily exercise, change of scenery, and fresh air made all the difference in the world. I'm probably more productive for my employer at home but I feel way better as a human being when I commute in. When WFH, there wer…

>Now that all said, I don't believe any level of car commuting is healthy. Kill that with fire and WFH!

I like driving, lots of people do. A nice 20 minute drive is a good commute. Bumper to bumper traffic for more than 40 is hell.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#68

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #57

As the exception that proves the rule, I missed my commute terribly and its absence was having a negative impact on me. However, I have a 30 minute bicycle commute, which I think changes everything. The daily exercise, change of scenery, and fresh air made all the difference in the world. I'm probably more productive for my employer at home but I feel way better as a human being when I commute in. When WFH, there wer…

I had a 30 - 40 minute bike commute pre-COVID (almost all of it was on off road trails, it was great), and still preferred WFH (which was only allowed one day a week).

I moved and no longer have the bike option (taking bike friendly roads would lead to a 90+ minute bike commute), but even an easy bike commute would not make me want to return to the office.

I've replaced the bike commute with an indoor spinning bike.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#69

Post by Ataraxic » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #51

Johnny555 wrote: post #6

That's one reason for sure, but even if my house was a 10 minute walk from the office, I'd still rather only go in for meetings. At home I have my own private office with a nice view. I have a nice set of speakers and can play any music I like. If I want to go for a walk, I'm in a quiet suburban neighborhood with hiking trails nearby. The kitchen is always stocked with snacks I like plus freshly prepared healthy lunc…

>There's enough background noise in the open office that I keep headphones on most of the time while I'm at my desk. I still don't get how we as a species went "this is fine". The complete loss of audiovisual privacy is such an immense drain. I'll buy the "being close together works better" argument, but I still can't grasp how that offsets all the distractions in the modern office.

I feel like the unicorn where I both enjoyed my colleagues in the office and had a lot of fun. Was it _more_ productive? Hard to say but I could easily put on my headphones and work. The lack of visual privacy I realize but I would never say it hindered my work. Then again nobody was on me if I went on reddit for a bit because the tests are running.

I think a bunch of people on hacker news are discounting how much more you can learn in an office with helpful colleagues. When I was a new developer I absorbed so much information in the office just from being able to ask people questions in person. Just from people overhearing a conversation I was having and saying "I think you probably want to do it like X instead" and explaining! In my opinion many people are discounting the development of newer engineers. I'm sure it can happen remotely but remote work requires more intentional coordination and that's one area that I doubt it's happening more effectively than in an office (on the whole). I'm not saying in person meetings are awesome but comparatively, interacting with other people is easier and more enjoyable as opposed to having the same meeting digitally.

Re: Dreaded commute to the city is keeping offices mostly empty

#70

Post by apple4ever » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #6

That's one reason for sure, but even if my house was a 10 minute walk from the office, I'd still rather only go in for meetings. At home I have my own private office with a nice view. I have a nice set of speakers and can play any music I like. If I want to go for a walk, I'm in a quiet suburban neighborhood with hiking trails nearby. The kitchen is always stocked with snacks I like plus freshly prepared healthy lunc…

> At the "new" office, no one has an assigned desk, so I have to take everything I need with me to my desk and pack it up at the end of the day.

Which is the opposite direction. I don't mind being in the office, especially on a hybrid scheduled. But I hate not having my own office. I hate having to share a giant room with people.