Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#21

Post by RandomLensman » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:42 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #13

RandomLensman wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd still argue that if you want a society with different rules then there are two broad choices: (i) get enough people on your side to change the society you are in; or (ii) move to a society that operates closer to what you want Technological escape hatches are probably at best a stop-gap measure, but not a replacement for (i) or (ii)

Usually yes, but some technologies are so powerful they do reshape what is possible for society. Things like birth control, the internet, military technologies like cavalry or guns, the development of limited liability corporations. These things are more powerful than mere laws in what they accomplished. Privacy-coins could be the next big one. It switches accounting from being a tool of coercion (c.f. the famous cas…

I'd would say none of the technologies listed even closely approach the impact of social technologies such as rule of law, democracy, etc.

If your fellow citizens in aggregate really don't like what you do and want to stop you, the will eventually find a way. You want a society that does not police where money flows - which is a big change and there is no evidence that broadly people like to open the taps on things like terrorist financing, slave trading etc. So there will likely be some limits that societies like to enforce.

And of course they could attack crypto by taking over mining, policing any sale of hardware, making touching any crypto a felony, clamp down harder on any cause you want to donate to, etc. They might not win completely, but they might make things pretty uncomfortable for most that would want to use it.

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#22

Post by roenxi » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:44 AM UTC

saurik wrote: post #18

roenxi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually yes, but some technologies are so powerful they do reshape what is possible for society. Things like birth control, the internet, military technologies like cavalry or guns, the development of limited liability corporations. These things are more powerful than mere laws in what they accomplished. Privacy-coins could be the next big one. It switches accounting from being a tool of coercion (c.f. the famous cas…

> the development of limited liability corporations I generally agree with you but don't understand this example: the concept of an LLC is not a technology that stands against law in a way that forces the law to adapt but is a construct that only exists by the grace of law... like, what would it mean to illegally form an LLC in a world that didn't agree with such actions?

Ah yes, sorry. I may have left out a few steps in the thinking.

A country that doesn't adopt LLCs or some similar method of pooling risk will tend to get overrun by a country that does. So people can try to stand against the tide by not allowing pooled risk and capitalism, then 50-100 years later the capitalists role over them because the wealth gap has gotten so large there isn't room for meaningful resistance.

Kind of like what happened between the USSR and the US, or Europe v. All Other Civilisations. You can technically choose not to use the legal ideas, but that is really just choosing to be overwhelmed by more organised groups of people. Much like how a military that refused to use guns would get overwhelmed by one that does.

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#23

Post by RandomLensman » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:44 AM UTC

searchableguy wrote: post #15

RandomLensman wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd still argue that if you want a society with different rules then there are two broad choices: (i) get enough people on your side to change the society you are in; or (ii) move to a society that operates closer to what you want Technological escape hatches are probably at best a stop-gap measure, but not a replacement for (i) or (ii)

> move to a society that operates closer to what you want This doesn't work. All countries are pressured to adopt the same compliance and framework. OECD, IMF, WEF, and other world organizations will successfully force same reforms everywhere.

What is your evidence that in aggregate citizens want what you want/dislike the current state? If that is not the case, you cannot claim that "countries are pressured".

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#24

Post by roenxi » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:46 AM UTC

RandomLensman wrote: post #21

roenxi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually yes, but some technologies are so powerful they do reshape what is possible for society. Things like birth control, the internet, military technologies like cavalry or guns, the development of limited liability corporations. These things are more powerful than mere laws in what they accomplished. Privacy-coins could be the next big one. It switches accounting from being a tool of coercion (c.f. the famous cas…

I'd would say none of the technologies listed even closely approach the impact of social technologies such as rule of law, democracy, etc. If your fellow citizens in aggregate really don't like what you do and want to stop you, the will eventually find a way. You want a society that does not police where money flows - which is a big change and there is no evidence that broadly people like to open the taps on things l…

Nobody likes homelessness. How is democracy going at putting an end to it? The list of similar examples is endless; democracies are forced to put up with a lot of stuff that nobody likes when everything that is tried turns out not to work.

Democracy is a very powerful technology, no argument there. But it can't overcome technical realities. It is better at adjusting to them and giving up when the cost gets too high.

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#25

Post by bettysdiagnose » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:47 AM UTC

jcbrand wrote: post #6

Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a disaster for financial privacy; the exceptions are a handful of emerging privacy-focused blockchain finance alternatives, and these are a gift to money-launderers. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. The existing, centralized electronic payment systems are a disaster for financial privacy, and it'll only get worse with CBDCs. If you try to make so…

>If you try to make something private, then you're helping money launderers, criminals and pedophiles.

But you can't just hand wave concerns regarding money laundering and other criminality away. If you want to, you should just say "these things don't matter that much", but don't just avoid them entirely.

>Lastly, we reserve the right to manipulate the money supply. It's enough for you to know that we are experts and have your best interests in mind. You don't need to concern yourself with how much money there is, how its supply is managed or the potential negative effects of our manipulation, you wouldn't understand the implications anyway.

You mean to say that we live in a democracy. We elect our representatives, and they pick who runs these institutions. They are relatively "undemocratic" because when politicians are able to manipulate the interest rates directly, well things are perhaps even worse.

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#26

Post by astoor » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:49 AM UTC

RandomLensman wrote: post #9

jcbrand wrote: post #6

Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a disaster for financial privacy; the exceptions are a handful of emerging privacy-focused blockchain finance alternatives, and these are a gift to money-launderers. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. The existing, centralized electronic payment systems are a disaster for financial privacy, and it'll only get worse with CBDCs. If you try to make so…

I'd still argue that if you want a society with different rules then there are two broad choices: (i) get enough people on your side to change the society you are in; or (ii) move to a society that operates closer to what you want Technological escape hatches are probably at best a stop-gap measure, but not a replacement for (i) or (ii)

Or (iii) try to set up a new society elsewhere, e.g. Cryptoland[0], the Crypto-Currency Seastead[1], Blockchain City[2], Bitcoin city[3], etc.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29867057

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28441794

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29099022

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29300250

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#27

Post by nl » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:51 AM UTC

tromp wrote: post #20

> Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a disaster for financial privacy; the exceptions are a handful of emerging privacy-focused blockchain finance alternatives, and these are a gift to money-launderers. Is this arguing both for and against the need for financial privacy at the same time?

> Is this arguing both for and against the need for financial privacy at the same time?

No.

It's a perfectly reasonable position to take. I want my transactions to be private to the world but it's reasonable that law enforcement has a method to investigate criminal behavior.

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#28

Post by RandomLensman » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 10:58 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #24

RandomLensman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd would say none of the technologies listed even closely approach the impact of social technologies such as rule of law, democracy, etc. If your fellow citizens in aggregate really don't like what you do and want to stop you, the will eventually find a way. You want a society that does not police where money flows - which is a big change and there is no evidence that broadly people like to open the taps on things l…

Nobody likes homelessness. How is democracy going at putting an end to it? The list of similar examples is endless; democracies are forced to put up with a lot of stuff that nobody likes when everything that is tried turns out not to work. Democracy is a very powerful technology, no argument there. But it can't overcome technical realities. It is better at adjusting to them and giving up when the cost gets too high.

Nobody likes homelessness, but do people care about it enough to vote for people with an agenda for it or pay for it to change?

And no, technologies do not freely diffuse through societies, some stuff remains pretty firmly in highly policed boxes when the cost of letting it run free is deemed to high (can you just go buy nuclear weapons, for example?). Who is to say that the cost of banning crypto would be too high - I have not seen the evidence for that (also not really for a ban, either)? That is a political decision, not a technical one. And, yes, there can be bad decisions with really high costs, no doubt.

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#29

Post by eternalban » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 11:02 AM UTC

tromp wrote: post #20

> Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a disaster for financial privacy; the exceptions are a handful of emerging privacy-focused blockchain finance alternatives, and these are a gift to money-launderers. Is this arguing both for and against the need for financial privacy at the same time?

> Is this arguing both for and against the need for financial privacy at the same time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayman_Islands

No. Like all things connected to real power, the subtext is that the sovereign alone can setup "privacy-focused" banking for 'special' interests. Anyone else who attempts it is a rebel and may be drawn and quartered. Long live the lizard queen.

Re: Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s influence

#30

Post by RandomLensman » Wed, Jun 01, 2022, 11:03 AM UTC

jcbrand wrote: post #14

Shish2k wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Trust a democratically elected government to act in the interests of its citizens” isn’t ideal, but I’m not sure “trust a combination of tech-bros and anarchy” is an improvement? I’m working in a legal-but-taboo industry, where mastercard and visa don’t want to deal with us, which is a huge pain in the ass - but every time I’ve looked at crypto, it seems to fix one or two problems and introduce 10 more...

You're making a mistake in thinking that monetary policy is somehow democratic and that there is some kind of meaningful oversight over it. Central Banks are privately owned and by design are meant to be "independent" of politics (otherwise politicians would use the money printer to continuously to buy votes, destroying the currency in the process). There is no real oversight over central banks and nobody (outside of…

Beyond the Fed, which other large central banks are privately owned?

The Bank of England has only been independent for a pretty short time, for example, so central bank independence is a fairly new concept that could change again - because it is a political decision, not a law of nature.