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Climate Spiral [video]

svs.gsfc.nasa.gov

41–50 of 88 posts

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#41
post #14

so here's a fun question: it's become quite trendy in policy circles in california to incentivize the removal of lawns and gardens as part of water conservation efforts. doesn't removal of fertile topsoil and replacement of it with rocks and cacti at scale actually reduce carbon sequestration and heat absorption capacity?

I don't think so in any meaningful way. Also, removing and wasting the water to keep a lawn green heats the river that water was pulled from. Plus, mowing a lawn is usually done with some of the dirtiest engines out there. Removing lawns is always a net good.

sure, but don't we put lawns on roofs in cities to try and cool them down in the summer?

i understand the notion of returning to existing vegetation, but these places are already irreversibly altered by the presence of humans anyway. buildings and parking lots and roads and sidewalks have been built.

it's pretty striking when you see what little soil remains being replaced with rocks.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#42
post #15
post #5

I find data presented in such a manner, without comment, quite a bit more compelling than much of what passes for debate these days.

A significant part of the debate is simply scientists going, "please, for the love of god, look at the data."

There are a few real scientists who realize there is too little actual data on a geologic scale to do anything more than paint pretty but meaningless graphs.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#43
post #37

It's misleading to imply that this is an exponential process, rather than an S-curve. If we look where all the oil came from, we could deduce that by burning it all we would be just going back to similar environment. I.e. the absolute worst thing that could happen is a tropical paradise.

The problem is not the end state, it's the speed at which we are approaching that end state.

Think about a car moving down the highway, when you gradually apply the brake, you can safely decelerate to 0. When you hit a stationary barrier, getting to 0 is potentially deadly and also damages the car.

Rapid climate change kills species, disrupts supply chains, increases damaging weather like hurricanes, destroys agricultural lands, and erodes shorelines. All of which we could cope with over thousands or millions of years. But doing it over hundreds is going to be a catastrophe.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#44
post #37

It's misleading to imply that this is an exponential process, rather than an S-curve. If we look where all the oil came from, we could deduce that by burning it all we would be just going back to similar environment. I.e. the absolute worst thing that could happen is a tropical paradise.

The transition from today's world to tropical paradise would include mass extinctions and a lot of human suffering.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#45

To be honest, for a problem that's only been around for 50 years and that requires major technological and economic disruption combined with global geopolitical cooperation to solve, I'd say we, as a species are doing pretty good at coming together to combat climate change. Is it easy to imagine going faster, easily. Are we doing absolutely everything we can, assuredly not. Is there still going to be dramatic ecologi…

On the other hand we never had so much knowledge.

Your comment reads as an excuse in why it's okay that we are that slow.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post war era saw a huge jump in resource usage, and the discovery of the Haber process resulted in huge agricultural returns, enabling a massive population spike.

The post war era led to the massive population spike, not improved farming. Anyone apart from their honey for more than a week knows that.

[deleted]

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post war era saw a huge jump in resource usage, and the discovery of the Haber process resulted in huge agricultural returns, enabling a massive population spike.

The post war era led to the massive population spike, not improved farming. Anyone apart from their honey for more than a week knows that.

It's not so simple. Haber's process increased the population the globe could support by billions. So yes, baby boomers came from post war era, but global availability of food meant that the generations following didn't starve or cap out.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so in any meaningful way. Also, removing and wasting the water to keep a lawn green heats the river that water was pulled from. Plus, mowing a lawn is usually done with some of the dirtiest engines out there. Removing lawns is always a net good.

sure, but don't we put lawns on roofs in cities to try and cool them down in the summer? i understand the notion of returning to existing vegetation, but these places are already irreversibly altered by the presence of humans anyway. buildings and parking lots and roads and sidewalks have been built. it's pretty striking when you see what little soil remains being replaced with rocks.

Rooftop lawns in cities are to offset the increase in heat generated by having the city there. They are an attempt to return the environment to something closer to natural.

And yes, xeriscaping is striking. Absolutely beautiful to see native plants, well adapted to the climate, thriving and taking center stage.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#49
post #11

Very cool visualization! What are the causes of the rapid acceleration starting in the 80s, I assume globalization had something to do with it?

Well, the Keeling Curve (the record of CO2 accumulation in the atmosphere since the late 1950s) shows pretty steady accumulation, though it's not quite a linear line, it's slightly exponential.

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/

If you compare that to the global temperature data presented in the same kind of graph, there's this relatively flat period from the 1950s through the 1970s, before the steady climb begins:

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/

CO2 is best understood as having its most potent effect at about ~12 km up in the atmosphere, this is where under pre-industrial conditions there was a large 'escape window' for infrared radiation (due to colder temps and lower pressures). That warming in turn drives water vapor feedback at lower levels in the atmosphere, with the water vapor accounting for 2/3 or so of the actual radiative trapping and the CO2 accounting for about 1/3 (then there's methane, a compounding factor but IIRC it's about 1/20th overall).

If we take the Milankovitch cycle of glacial ages into account, the world without fossil CO2 should have been steadily sliding into another ice age (with the warm peak about 10K years ago). So the flattening out period represents perhaps the end of that trend (driven by orbital parameters, and associated feedbacks w/ ice sheets and CO2).

Now the CO2, thanks to steady increase, is the dominant factor controlling global temperature trends, and the global temperature is basically just tracking the global atmospheric CO2, with a lag time of at least several decades (I think it's more like 100 years for the global temperature to catch up with the global atmospheric CO2, but that's a matter of debate).

Conclusion: even if we take dramatic action to curb fossil fuel use (which is a good idea), we're going to be stuck with a steadily rising global temperature for at least 100 years before leveling off (and this ignores issues like permafrost outgassing of additional CO2 and methane destabilization in shallow marine sediments). Hence humans are going to have to plan for adaptation to these new climatic conditions. The point has been well tipped, and we're in for it.

Re: Climate Spiral [video]

#50
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant part of the debate is simply scientists going, "please, for the love of god, look at the data."

There are a few real scientists who realize there is too little actual data on a geologic scale to do anything more than paint pretty but meaningless graphs.

The majority consensus among climate scientists is that's is getting warmer due to human emissions and the error bars on "how much warmer" are not big enough to justify continuing business as usual. But even if you believe that we don't have the data for accurate predictions, that is not an excuse not to be concerned. Quite on the contrary, it could be much worse than what the IPCC reports.
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