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Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

bbc.com

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Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#61

Post by db48x »

hellisothers wrote: post #46
ryanSrich wrote: post #3

Of course this is happening. I’m coming up on year 10 of working remotely, and year 2 of completely async. The only forced-commute job I ever had was for 6 months right out of college. I’ve been preaching remote work for almost the entire time I’ve been doing it. I thought it would catch on much sooner, but it’s here now. I think async is the next thing that will happen. If you’re building software there’s really no…

Maybe this works as an IC that has no collaborative aspect to their day-to-day but as an IC leader async adds material pauses and latency into projects. If everybody is ok with everything taking longer at the start and end of projects then cool (the middle implementation phase is less impacted) but taking a day to answer a question that could have taken minutes is not a bonus.

Asking a quick question that only takes a few minutes is a nice bonus for you, but for the person you asked it was an interruption that cost them 20 minutes or more of focus. That might be ok if the person you asked has a job that is designed to be interrupt–driven (aka a manager), but if this was another engineer then this wasn’t a net benefit.

But the other side of the coin is that if you do need to ask a question and get an answer, then what is wrong with a text chat mechanism like IRC or Slack or whatever? These tools also work for real collaboration between engineers too.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#62

Post by db48x »

orangecat wrote: post #53
ryanSrich wrote: post #3

Of course this is happening. I’m coming up on year 10 of working remotely, and year 2 of completely async. The only forced-commute job I ever had was for 6 months right out of college. I’ve been preaching remote work for almost the entire time I’ve been doing it. I thought it would catch on much sooner, but it’s here now. I think async is the next thing that will happen. If you’re building software there’s really no…

If you’re building software there’s really no reason you have to share working hours with anyone. When I'm doing UI work, it's far more efficient to have a real-time session with a designer rather than multiple rounds of email/Figma comments.

Then one of you needs to work on your written communication skills.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#63

Post by pharmakom »

ryanSrich wrote: post #3

Of course this is happening. I’m coming up on year 10 of working remotely, and year 2 of completely async. The only forced-commute job I ever had was for 6 months right out of college. I’ve been preaching remote work for almost the entire time I’ve been doing it. I thought it would catch on much sooner, but it’s here now. I think async is the next thing that will happen. If you’re building software there’s really no…

Sync is, occasionally, essential to me as an IC. I think it would be reasonable for a company to require a few hours per week, with the precise time negotiated between the people involved.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#64

Post by arinlen »

ameister14 wrote: post #15
axg11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the concept of async work but I’m also scared of how transactional that would make work. Most companies that preach async now have a very strong, “friendly” culture. If async catches on more widely I’m worried it would be the final push to make software development purely transactional and performance/pay would be directly tied to metrics. I enjoy the human component of work. I don’t like _all_ of my coworkers…

>If async catches on more widely I’m worried it would be the final push to make software development purely transactional and performance/pay would be directly tied to metrics. Here's the thing; that (a completely transactional relationship between all elements of a team) doesn't actually work well to make good products. Sure, a bunch of companies would probably do it as it's easier to measure worker production that…

> Here's the thing; that doesn't actually work well to make good products. Sure, a bunch of companies (...)

Respectfully,you know nothing about what you're talking about.

Async work is already the norm for some companies, even prior to moves to full remote work. I personally know teams in renowned companies which before COVID already split teams working on products between the US, Europe, and India. They stuck with full async because it worked, and worked better than alternatives.

With COVID, the whole world went full remote due to necessity, and I personally know teams whose output improved significantly with the move to full remote to the point where they stuck in remote by default.

> Personally, I think it should be coupled with an investment in HR to get more qualified and motivated people working on the problem.

I disagree. What I'm seeing is a lazy, conservative mindset of people who feel scared and threatened by a reform shaking up the very core of a system they feel benefits them personally.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#65

Post by hellisothers »

spookthesunset wrote: post #38
rossdavidh wrote: post #16

I have worked remotely more often than not in the last 10 years. I think it absolutely works in some cases, and hybrid (e.g. 3 days remote per week) works for more cases. But... The first time there is a bad labor market, most of the current remote jobs are going to disappear. Not all, but most, and in nearly all professions the remote jobs will mostly be contractors who have no long-term employment with the company…

Remote workers should be mostly contract in the first place. If you look at how most are operating odds are good they’d pass almost every test from the IRS. All they’d need is to take a couple gigs at once. And why shouldn’t they take multiple gigs at once? It’s not like people working remote are at their current employer for the culture or politics or anything. In fact most do remote to avoid that crap. Might as wel…

The main test has nothing to do with remoteness and everything to do with how much influence your employer has over your day to day work. None of the companies I’m familiar with that are in this struggle have suddenly let the workers have more free determination over their work then before.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#66

Post by leetcrew »

hellisothers wrote: post #46
ryanSrich wrote: post #3

Of course this is happening. I’m coming up on year 10 of working remotely, and year 2 of completely async. The only forced-commute job I ever had was for 6 months right out of college. I’ve been preaching remote work for almost the entire time I’ve been doing it. I thought it would catch on much sooner, but it’s here now. I think async is the next thing that will happen. If you’re building software there’s really no…

Maybe this works as an IC that has no collaborative aspect to their day-to-day but as an IC leader async adds material pauses and latency into projects. If everybody is ok with everything taking longer at the start and end of projects then cool (the middle implementation phase is less impacted) but taking a day to answer a question that could have taken minutes is not a bonus.

I agree with you, there are absolutely pros and cons to async work, and sometimes the cons outweigh the pros.

I would point out though that not everyone operates at the scale where everyone can come into the same office every day and meet face to face. I work closely with engineers on both us coasts, in india, and in western europe. whether I work out of my apartment or the nearest office does not really affect the speed or quality of communication with my colleagues.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#67

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

hellisothers wrote: post #46
ryanSrich wrote: post #3

Of course this is happening. I’m coming up on year 10 of working remotely, and year 2 of completely async. The only forced-commute job I ever had was for 6 months right out of college. I’ve been preaching remote work for almost the entire time I’ve been doing it. I thought it would catch on much sooner, but it’s here now. I think async is the next thing that will happen. If you’re building software there’s really no…

Maybe this works as an IC that has no collaborative aspect to their day-to-day but as an IC leader async adds material pauses and latency into projects. If everybody is ok with everything taking longer at the start and end of projects then cool (the middle implementation phase is less impacted) but taking a day to answer a question that could have taken minutes is not a bonus.

Yes, but synchronous communication can and should be the exception. In loco working policy basically requires entire teams to live by and commute just so some manager doesn’t have to have the discipline of scheduling meetings in advance and ask things across the desk.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#68

Post by lupire »

hellisothers wrote: post #46
ryanSrich wrote: post #3

Of course this is happening. I’m coming up on year 10 of working remotely, and year 2 of completely async. The only forced-commute job I ever had was for 6 months right out of college. I’ve been preaching remote work for almost the entire time I’ve been doing it. I thought it would catch on much sooner, but it’s here now. I think async is the next thing that will happen. If you’re building software there’s really no…

Maybe this works as an IC that has no collaborative aspect to their day-to-day but as an IC leader async adds material pauses and latency into projects. If everybody is ok with everything taking longer at the start and end of projects then cool (the middle implementation phase is less impacted) but taking a day to answer a question that could have taken minutes is not a bonus.

Remote doesn't mean asynchronous, unless timezones/working hours are very different.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#69

Post by DogLover_ »

capableweb wrote: post #43
DogLover_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have to guess, they mean within US

So Spotify employees in Stockholm would earn differently than the ones in the US? Doesn't really sound like "continuing to pay New York City-level salaries to workers no matter where they're based" if that's the case. Edit: Here's a source that says they pay the same no matter if you're in the office or at home (basically), but it's limited to countries Spotify agrees you can be in: > Location choices – we will also…

My guess is that they still pay US higher but I have no evidence of it. AirBnB also allows you to work from anywhere but if you look at their job-listing they still show location as San Francisco for pretty much all of the jobs.

Re: Workers quitting over return-to-office policies

#70

Post by michaelchisari »

elric wrote: post #11
dijit wrote: post #2

I’ll be honest: I feel somewhat vindicated due my own personal struggles with the open office[0] and people arguing for the status quo on hacker news[1]. I am extremely sad at the extreme loss of life and horrible conditions caused by the pandemic. So I feel exceedingly guilty for feeling glad that an upside of it is that we can finally do away with this horrible practice of crushing everyone together so the managers…

I'm growing more and more frustrated with open offices, and with $management's unwillingness any concerns. Quitting isn't really an option: I haven't seen a single Belgian company that has an acceptable office layout for software engineers. Even desk sizes seem to be getting smaller and smaller. Remote options are few and far between (and I don't want to WFH anymore).

I'm also burnt out on WFH. At this point, I'd appreciate an workplace to go in to.

But I'd also appreciate that workplace giving me my own office with a door that closes.

I've had that only once in my career and it was bliss.

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