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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#721
It's been 20 years since I had a student plagiarise my assignment and I still remember how mad it made me to be falsely accused of cheating.

This was before everything was automated - In our C++ course, we had weekly assignments that were done in the lab and we were expected to turn in a printout of the code (this will be important) along with a 3.5" disk with the source and executable. I never had any difficulty completing the assignments and would regularly help others debug their code. One day, a student I had helped previously asked if they could just have a copy of my code so they could compare it to theirs. I declined as kindly as I could and they left, slightly dejected, but not nothing that would have been an immediate red flag.

Remember those printouts? Well, it was not uncommon for one to complete the assignment, prepare their printout and deliverables, then find a bug or two during some last-minute debugging prior to submission. So into the recycle-bin goes the printout.

Well, turns out that this particular student had seen me drop a copy of my code into the bin and they proceeded to retrieve it and copy the code verbatim... bugs and all... And they then submitted it while I was still preparing my corrected submission.

I was later called into the professor's office for a meeting with her and the program coordinator and accused of plagiarising the other student's assignment. I denied it, of course. They gave a long speech on the seriousness of academic integrity and said that if I came clean, they would go easy. I explained there must have been some mistake - you got the wrong guy! But they were quite confident with their findings, which they proceeded to share with me. To say I was shocked when presented with the evidence would be the understatement of the century. I knew immediately what had happened and I knew I could prove my innocence. But I was still beyond pissed. I was pissed at the student who cheated me, and I was pissed at the prof and admin for falsely accusing me.

Fortunately for me, I still had a copy of the old printout in my binder as well as on my network drive - conveniently labelled "v.1.0". I was also able to produce my corrected "v.2.0" and explained exactly where the bugs were and how I fixed them. I then suggested they speak to the other student and ask them to explain how their code works and if they could identify the bugs.

After being confronted with this new evidence, the other student confessed - they had taken my printout from the recycle bin because they knew I always got full marks on the code. But I guess they had also assumed I always got it right on the first try.

The other student was offered the opportunity to drop the class and re-take it next semester rather than receive an F. However, it was later revealed that they had been pulling the same stunt in other programming classes as well. I don't know much about what happened after that but I didn't see them around next semester.

I didn't expect an apology from the student - although that would have been proper. But the fact that neither the professor nor the program coordinator apologised, or even admitted any mistake, never sat right with me.

This article was a great read. Prof seems like he did his best. Fuck cheaters.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#722
post #666
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

> HOW do you measure knowledge? And when you decide how, how do you scale it? When I was in school, many moons ago (in France) there were no quizzes. Zero. "Tests" were either dissertations (for topics such as literature, history, etc.) or problems. Everything was done in class, in longhand. There were no good or bad answers, even in math class, because what was evaluated was the ability to describe the problem, the…

Yes, although many of the students in the story weren’t interested enough in learning, had “low morals”, “no honor” and some apparently were scumbags, as a group they were somewhat efficiently solving the problem of passing the class… that’s not nothing!

In the real world the solutions to your problems can’t be found online, or if they can it’s valid to search them there (and lawyers will charge you a lot to do that). Collectively searching and distributing a solution is something young people are quite adept at (e.g. gaming wikis).

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#723
post #3

Quite a read, indeed. As a student witnessing the amount of cheating going on, I was always surprised about the noise raised by teachers on it: I always felt that my score was my own, and didn't care about comparing against others. Perhaps that's why I didn't care? Another thing is that college is voluntary, and everyone takes the courses for some perceived gain. If it's just a diploma with high GPA, I let them be. T…

I always felt that my score was my own, and didn't care about comparing against others. Tough to do when you’re sharing a curve with a bunch of cheaters, and the grades matter for your future. I know in the program I attended I was up against a fair few who were taking cognition enhancing drugs, others who had exam copies from prior years to help them prep, and a lot of people who copied each others’ homework. It was…

> sharing a curve

It's beyond me why is this even allowed.

Are you grading results of your educational effort or are you organizing a beauty pageant?

Not grading on a curve should be part of academic integrity standards.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

> I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one idea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. > programming without having a solid understanding of CS background and how computers work it would make me just a code monkey, able just to do what I saw in tutorials and copy pasting SO answers without understanding them Other…

IMO even CS degrees are worth much these days. I know too many CS graduates that can't grasp the basics, and their work suffers from it. For a recent example (which I hope doesn't get picked apart): even with help they can't guesstimate the complexity of simple algorithms they write.

Genuine interest is a requirement, a degree isn't. Anyone wanting to measure knowledge is even more fucked than we assume.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#725
post #633
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

My position on this has been pretty controversial when I've shared it before, but I still think it's correct: Measuring knowledge at scale is futile, harmful, and pointless. The fact that a lot of society has been arranged around the fiction that this is a feasible endeavor does not mean it has borne out in practice, and prioritizing assessment in this way has been gradually hollowing out most forms of pedagogy of th…

Exams are a bad way of learning… but a good way for a university to filter out slow down people that would devalue their degrees.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#727
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

> I know I will get downvoted for saying this

I doubt it, but I downvoted you for saying that. No comment anywhere has ever been improved by adding "I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but". Please don't do it.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#728
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

I have seen plenty of bad code monkeys who had high grades, the idea that the current 'high standards' give us better programmers is unfounded.

The issue is that modifying a Wordpress theme is just as much of a job as optimizing a low level 3D rendering pipeline or writing facial recognition software. One of these is not like the others and the issue is that universities fail to realise this and just try to teach everything.

In my mind we would need to abolish the idea of a general programmer and move towards specialization.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#729
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

> HOW do you measure knowledge? And when you decide how, how do you scale it? I have experienced good tests and bad tests. I studied in France, tests were open book with no multiple choice questions, only problems to solve. This approach scales badly and is a lot of work for the professor grading but it measures knowledge. The problems were long, had few questions besides describing the problem and maybe a few questi…

I don't know if it's popular in France, but another very simple idea that eliminates cheating entirely is oral exams. They're still done a lot in Italy. I once literally inverted a binary tree on a whiteboard :)

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#730
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

> I never heard someone bragging that he is a doctor after watching YouTube videos

Yet real doctors actually believe the bullshit they get from medical reps when it comes to prescribing actual drugs that goes in patients bodies. I will let you ponder how successful that strategy is.

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