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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#671
I am a professor too. It has taken me about 15 years to realise that my job is not plagiarism hunting.

My institution has almost no ability to enforce plagiarism rules. Many of my colleagues plagiarise. When I do catch students cheating I have to be sure. I just submit a grade, usually 0, and then it is someone else's job to follow up.

The new generation is particularly sensitive and expects...exceptions. They roll up with parents and lawyers and parents who are lawyers and swing their...suitcases around. We end up giving a second chance or a third.

Luckily, I have only had one major case of plagiarism, the rest have been bad but easily dealt with.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#672
Honestly, why bother joining the chat if you're obligated to put in so much effort?

Analysing social media for evidence of violating academic integrity isn't some thin you get paid for.

Personally, I wouldn't. Why waste what little time I have left each day? Not to mention, whatever grade they get, whether they cheated or not doesn't matter, I'd still get paid at the end of the day.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#673
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

> HOW do you measure knowledge? This is not the issue, this is the root cause of the issue. You DON'T measure knowledge. You should measure the satisfaction of the students. Because the most valuable asset a developed country needs to protect is the will of the members of their society to keep improving and learning. > maybe we should start by rolling back this common conception that when it comes to schools, everyon…

>This is not the issue, this is the root cause of the issue.

>You DON'T measure knowledge.

>You should measure the satisfaction of the students.

>Because the most valuable asset a developed country needs to protect is the will of the members of their society to keep improving and learning.

What is satisfaction going to get you? As a student, I would have been very satisfied to have great marks while enjoying each night of the week, unfortunately I had to work and skip parties.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#674

This happened to me in undergrad with an autograded class. I remember soloing the class and thinking that the assignments were super hard. They would post grade averages for assignments and I was doing worse than usual. I remember a TA posting about cheating being an issue. They even released a graph of anonymized student repositories with edges indicating a detected instance of cheating Turned out that a HUGE cohort…

I was taking an upper level marine biology course - the tests were VERY difficult, but they were take-home, do them at your leisure. I was cool with it. But walked into a coffee shop one day and found 75% of the class sharing answers and cheating anyway.

No post body was provided.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#675
Very disappointed at the cynicism in this thread. It seems that many people believe cheating is acceptable, or even necessary.

There is another aspect to cheating that I don't see mentioned. When lazy students become accustomed to cutting corners, they later become a legal liability as postgrads and employees, in terms of, for example, unethical research practices, copyright theft, and so on. I've seen this in my professional career from people who should know better, and I wish they were reprimanded as students rather than causing issues for the organisations that they're a part of.

There are pedagogical reasons to stop students from cheating early on, but it should be prevented for practical real-world reasons also.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#676
The amount of effort that this person put into the cheating analysis, and this blog post, is honestly super concerning.

I don’t understand the perspective of an educator who doesn’t expect cheating, and then instead of shutting down the chat immediately, keeps it open the whole semester in some fucked up moralistic detective game.

I truly feel like this was probably a boring class and the opposite of engaging. A very one sided view, we don’t see the student’s perspective at all, outside of the cheating.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#677

This is a bizarre post. The author is disconnected from reality. When cheating is easy, and especially if the grades are curved, non-cheaters are harshly punished. The author intentionally created such an environment and is surprised cheating is going on. The only possible solution I can see is that the majority of the grade is derived from non-online exams held under strict conditions: * IDs are checked * Randomized…

To say the author "intentionally created" an environment where cheating is commonplace I think may be a little unfair to them. Whether they run a given course online or in person is almost certainly well above their pay grade. While the situation was far from ideal and I believe he may have been too lenient in some situations (the plagiarism on the academic integrity assignment for one), at the end of the day he made the best of a very bad situation. No doubt, in-person exams as you described are the most cheat-proof way, but in a scenario where the author has no say in this, it's not a terrible outcome. Look at the semester following the one with widespread cheating - he made significant changes based on the past issues and in the process managed to eliminate a lot of the issues.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#678
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I TA'd for a Prolog course at my university (Imperial College London) during the four years of my PhD there. As part of that work I helped correct students' papers. It was pretty clear to me that the students were sharing their code and only changing variable names etc. to make it look different.

It didn't work, because you could see the same, let's say, idiosyncracies, in their code. For example, there might be three or four different ways to solve a coding exercise and about 60-75% of the papers would solve it using the same way, which was not necessarily the best, or even the most obvious, way (what is the most obvious way to solve a Prolog exercise might not be common sense, but that's why you are given a lecture, first, and then the exercise).

What's most interesting is that I saw the same patterns repeated over the three years I TA'd for one of the Prolog courses. I guess they shared the answers between years, or somebody had put them online (I searched but couldn't find them). Or they just copied solutions to similar exercises they found online.

I didn't report the cheating because I felt there was no benefit in doing so. In particular with Prolog, because it's not a language commonly used in the industry, and it's taught at Imperial mainly for historical reasons (there are many of us logicists studying, or teaching, there) I reckoned that most students found it a useless chore and did not understand why they needed to learn it, and why they needed to "waste" time solving those coding problems. So they copied from each other in order to get the job done quickly and then have more time to spend on the things they felt were more useful to them (like learning Python or "ML" I suppose).

I personally thought, and still think, that learning to program in Prolog is useful, just to disentangle a programmer's mind from the particularities of the coding paradigms, and the programming languages, she's most familiar with. At CS schools today, programming is introduced with Python and I guess it's easy to get into a mindframe that all programming languages must necessarily work like Python. Studying languages from different paradigms, like Prolog or Haskell, can shake you off that mentality (it sure did me, back when I did my CS degree).

The problems is that you can't really force this appreciation of the need to learn different things on students, who are often in a terrible hurry and under terrible pressure to do good on their course, so they can get on with life. The Prolog course I TA'd was mandatory and so it must have really felt like someone was trying to force the knowledge down the studnets' throats.

I don't think that's a good idea. You can't teach people that way. They'll just see your obvious effort to force them to learn what you want, and they'll simply take the obvious route around it. And that ends up teaching them a lesson that you really weren't expecting to teach: the world is full of idiots who think they can teach you things, but you know better than they do and you'll show them who's boss.

That's what students do with tests, also. They can see they're a useless waste of time and they can see the obvious way around them is to cheat, and that it's to their benefit to cheat. And so they cheat. I don't have solutions to this. The students shouldn't have to fight the school, and the school shouldn't have to fight the students. The school is there for the students' benefit after all.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#679

This is a bizarre post. The author is disconnected from reality. When cheating is easy, and especially if the grades are curved, non-cheaters are harshly punished. The author intentionally created such an environment and is surprised cheating is going on. The only possible solution I can see is that the majority of the grade is derived from non-online exams held under strict conditions: * IDs are checked * Randomized…

Did you miss the whole pandemic bit or are you too “disconnected from reality”?

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

Well it's probably down to the harm done if the standards are lowered vs. the gain. Incompetent doctor? People die. Incompetent chemist? People die, or at least there's substantial material damage. When it comes to mathematicians and physicists they only ever have any real impact when they roll up their sleeves, open matlab or R and turn their theoretical work into something practical. Does that make them programmers…

Wrote a program that helps find patients for donor organs. Make a mistake people die, luckily first real life test 6 people successfully received an organ.
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