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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#631

This happened to me in undergrad with an autograded class. I remember soloing the class and thinking that the assignments were super hard. They would post grade averages for assignments and I was doing worse than usual. I remember a TA posting about cheating being an issue. They even released a graph of anonymized student repositories with edges indicating a detected instance of cheating Turned out that a HUGE cohort…

Yes - it's similar to the situation in high school where there are kids who want to learn and kids who disrupt the class because they're lazy/not motivated/have issues/want attention.

Automated teaching and testing with social sharing automate that dynamic. There's less attention seeking, but much more passive aggressive subversion.

But that's not the scariest thing. The scary thing is that if it's a STEM field these students go on to get jobs in which they have no competence. This is truly catastrophic if you want software that works and buildings that don't collapse.

Worse - the skill they've learned best is gaming the system and hiding their incompetence.

It's a double failure - of culture as well as knowledge.

Kudos to the prof in the story for handling it so well. Most profs won't.

The underlying issue is that there's been far too little research into the social consequences of automating all kinds of interactions.

The 70s utopian ideal of "Give everyone a computer to empower them" turned out to be ridiculously naive. What happened instead is that various dysfunctional economic and cultural patterns were automated and enhanced.

Culture as a whole has no defences against this because hardly anyone has realised that it's a problem inherent within the culture-amplifying effects of automation, and not an unfortunate byproduct that just sort of happens sometimes - and who knows why?

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#632

>I knew that my students wanted a second chance, I wasn’t sure how many of them would take it. Part of completing the academic integrity assignment was a tacit admission of cheating, and some students seemed set on not admitting to anything. So, I was thrilled when I received the first completed academic integrity assignment. >What did the student have to say? There were many full sentences and as I read them I got t…

Mental illness, trolling, apathy.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#633
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

My position on this has been pretty controversial when I've shared it before, but I still think it's correct:

Measuring knowledge at scale is futile, harmful, and pointless. The fact that a lot of society has been arranged around the fiction that this is a feasible endeavor does not mean it has borne out in practice, and prioritizing assessment in this way has been gradually hollowing out most forms of pedagogy of their value while building an ever-expanding series of increasingly meaningless hoops for people to jump through to get what they actually need. We have deemed it necessary to create assessments to prop up the idea that education can be easily measured and should gate meaningful life outcomes for most people. Most if not all "cheating" behavior is either just a rational, strategic response to this situation, or a disconnect between how people actually solve problems (e.g. often collaborative and laser-focused on the part of the problem that drives the outcome, in this case the assessment) and some weird cultist notion of what it means for an individual to do it "correctly".

Effective pedagogy will never scale unless we get some really AGI-like technologies (I loved The Diamond Age as a kid, but A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer is from the perspective of extant tech a total pie-in-the-sky fantasy, illustrative of how meaningful teaching requires individualized approaches), and we see time and time again that teacher-to-student ratios as well as particularly good specific teachers are overwhelmingly the drivers of even the stupid metrics we are optimizing for

In short, this whole system is broken because its fundamental premise is flawed

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#634
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

Well it's probably down to the harm done if the standards are lowered vs. the gain.

Incompetent doctor? People die. Incompetent chemist? People die, or at least there's substantial material damage.

When it comes to mathematicians and physicists they only ever have any real impact when they roll up their sleeves, open matlab or R and turn their theoretical work into something practical. Does that make them programmers? Probably I guess.

Anyway as for us programmers there are very few jobs where a poorly written program will cause anyone any harm especially since it can be reviewed, tested, and corrected before being used for real, unlike a doctor who must use their skills on the fly and get it right first time, every time. So the bar for entry is obviously much lower and lowering standards doesn't do much to increase harm.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#635
post #360

In my degree (Comp Eng) we overlapped with the Comp Sci program a fair amount. Comp Sci was part of the college of mathematics and Comp Eng was part of the college of engineering, which were on opposite sides of campus and organizationally were very separate. The cultures could not have been any more different. The engineering labs were loud, full of collaboration and discussion. The professors would sometimes find o…

Odd, I'm also a Comp Eng grad and my experience was exactly the same - including the cross campus bit. I went to University of Nebraska - Lincoln. There was still definitely a fair amount of real cheating though. Especially during the online classes of COVID. Most of the cheating I saw was from classes that had clearly had difficulty creep up year after year due to un-caught cheating though, and had truly awful profe…

Group work is often set up specifically to force this kind of "cheating". My course used it as a way to disguise the fact that students weren't learning programming. They tested everyone at the very start of the course to locate people who already were self taught, then assigned each group one self taught person who ended up doing all the work. The rest ride for free, everyone passes and the scam continues.

I've tasted university education very little ever since. Academia is just flooded with intellectual fraud of all kinds. The students sense the lack of seriousness and accountability and realize that no matter what is said, that'll get away with it because the profs don't really care and in fact depend on cheating to survive.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#636
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

why do we need to "measure knowledge"? school should be to teach knowlege. Measuring is not our problem. It is the problem of the employers. Test the teachers not the students. We only need to make sure the teachers are of good quality, not the students.

Our brilliant courts have made it illegal to give aptitude tests to prospective employees, so they fall back to college degrees as gate keepers.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#637

Cheating matters little. The folks who cheat will spend their whole lives pursuing meaningless petty goals and will end up with average lives . And that’s fine, maybe it’s all they want

Not necessarily. During Covid my school (in France) shifted to online quizzes. Students would start by screenshoting the questions, which would then get automatically uploaded to a shared Dropbox folder. Students would then run a program that would cluster the screenshots and outputs the names of students who had the same questions and then they can collaborate directly. This is brilliant of course and solves all of the communication issues the students in this post faced but hearing about after it the fact (I was an international student and didn't know anyone in my class at the time) made me sick and salty. Most of those students are now workingnin high paying engineering jobs lol I am too but yeah, realistically, cheating works.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#638
>Too bad you used the same phone number that you have on file with the university.

Regardless of the legitimate discussion on cheating, why would a lecturer have access to student phone numbers, either directly or after asking the student affairs office to link them to names? The further I got in the article, the more it seemed like Reddit-style creative writing.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#639
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I never gave a fuck about grades. For some courses I had below average marks, for others I was the best. I studied because I wanted to genuinely understand how things work and how I can solve problems and how, beginning with one ideea I can extend it or come up with an entirely different idea. And I know I will get downvoted for saying this, but for me, programming without having a solid understanding of CS backgroun…

The reason why doctors have to jump through so many hoops is that the stakes are higher for failure.

While there are times where a piece of code failure or poorly worded instructions can cause injury to others, those are exceptions to the rule. Generally speaking- the cost of failure for writing and software is lower than it is medicine, and it makes sense not to gatekeep these industries behind theory, and rather just let results speak for themselves.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#640
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it screws up the class curve This is your problem right here. There is no rational argument for grading people on a class curve. That just makes the class a lottery and incentivises sabotaging for others to get an upper hand yourself.

I think that curves discourage cooperation and encourage zero-sum thinking. Curves are only really necessary when the professor is out of touch with the class and/or prerequisites. I don't think that people would typically go to the lengths of trying to sabotage someone else, in practice it could just look like a bunch of people working separately and not cooperating at all In an ideal world, there wouldn't be any cu…

I've always loved curved classes because they allow very good professors to give real mindfuck exam questions that cause you to walk away from the test with a new perspective on the material.

Those exams were often the most edifying couple hours of the whole semester. You also got a clear sense of the difference between you and a real master of the material which is a helpful lesson in humility.

I went back to grad school recently and it seems like that mode of testing has gone out of style in the last ten years. The exams I took were geared more towards establishing a minimum bar of competence, more for my future employers' benefit than my own.

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