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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#591
In chinese, copying and learning are the same word.

Also, "cheating" may be viewed as "not re-inventing the wheel" (someone already made the proof for this theorem, just copy paste it from your smartphone), "not doing the same work twice" (your neigboor just solved the equation, why re-solve it ? ), and "using the fastest, most reliable solution" (your neigboor is better than you in Maths, just take his answers). This is similar to taking a library (ex : deep-equal) or framework (nextjs) or service (carrds, netlify) instead of doing it yourselves.

I agree that, the issue is mostly not the student but the school (and society):

1. Does the student really need to remember historical dates, or Maths equations, when nowadays he can just google them in 10sec ? (Aka : unnecessary use of memory)

2. Does the student really need to understand the notion by himselves ? For example, I don't know how to use quaternion myself, buy I know how to work with, in Unity. I also don't care about Pythagore theorem proof, I know it works, that's all I need (all Maths lover will condemn me).

The thing is that we believe that school focus on teaching. They don't. They are called schools, but behave a lot more like evaluation (grading) centers. And mostly evaluate (grade) memorization and servitude btw, not actual understanding.

To be clear, evaluation (grading) is what you in job interview and for pilot, to make sure he knows how to fly the plane.

Is evaluation a part of learning ? It is. But not the same type of evaluation.

"I am able to make a small game like ping pong from scratch ?" - evaluate yourselves, test your skills. If you have success, it means learning phase is completed. The main differences are that : - You do it for yourselves, not for someone or something else (employer, school, teacher, parents, certification organism). If you cheat, you have 0 gain out of it. Cheating in a pure learning environnement make no sense. If students cheat, it means your environnment contains more than just learning.

Testing yourselves, to know for yourselves, if you have got an understanding of a notion. Is part of learning.

Without grading, a test become just a way to confirm to yourselves your knowledge. This is part of learning, and cheating on that make no sense, because you fool only yourselves.

School mix both learning and grading, it shouldn't.

In chinese, copying and learning are the same word.

Also, "cheating" may be viewed as "not re-inventing the wheel" (someone already made the proof for this theorem, just copy paste it from your smartphone), "not doing the same work twice" (your neigboor just solved the equation, why re-solve it ? ), and "using the fastest, most reliable solution" (your neigboor is better than you in Maths, just take his answers). This is similar to taking a library (ex : deep-equal) or framework (nextjs) or service (carrds, netlify) instead of doing it yourselves.

I agree that, the issue is mostly not the student but the school (and society):

1. Does the student really need to remember historical dates, or Maths equations, when nowadays he can just google them in 10sec ? (Aka : unnecessary use of memory)

2. Does the student really need to understand the notion by himselves ? For example, I don't know how to use quaternion myself, buy I know how to work with, in Unity. I also don't care about Pythagore theorem proof, I know it works, that's all I need (all Maths lover will condemn me).

The thing is that we believe that school focus on teaching. They don't. They are called schools, but behave a lot more like evaluation (grading) centers. And mostly evaluate (grade) memorization and servitude btw, not actual understanding.

To be clear, evaluation (grading) is what you in job interview and for pilot, to make sure he knows how to fly the plane.

Is evaluation a part of learning ? It is. But not the same type of evaluation.

"I am able to make a small game like ping pong from scratch ?" - evaluate yourselves, test your skills. If you have success, it means learning phase is completed.

When evaluation is part of learning: - You do it for yourselves, not for someone or something else (employer, school, teacher, parents, certification organism). That is called intresic motivation (vs extrinsic). - There may be or not be grading, but only you care about grading.

The employer doesn't care about how you grade to the tests he send to you, what he care about is that you've got the skills he need. And grading is just a means for that.

Everything the school does should be a means for making someone a good person for the society, a happy person, a person that can contribute to the society (a phrasing more large than employable).

What I have seen in my scolarity, is students and teacher focused on "passing exams", "getting good grades". But completly forgetting exams and grading "means to".

In a pure teaching environnement, grades and exams only purpose is to give a learning status indication to the student.

In school (in France national education), they also serve to give you right/priority on school entrances. And serve as social status indicator (the dumbs and the smarts).

Cheating in a pure learning environnement make no sense. If students cheat, it means your environnment contains more than just learning.

When you create extrinsic motivation (carrot and stick), it override intrinsic motivation. And you end up with student doing the homework ONLY if it is graded (carrot) or if not doing it is punishable (stick). And not because it give them a learning opportunity.

Schools (I am still referring to France national education) believe that humans dislike learning. This is false. Babies loves learning. School is teaching us that learning should be hard and painful.

If you do teaching, you don't need a carrot or a stick, because authentic learning is fun by itselves !

(I don't want to make this text longer, but this make me question if schools are just doing big mistakes, or if they have been designed in a way that favour something else than learning (eq : have there been malicious intention ?)).

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#592
post #526
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it screws up the class curve This is your problem right here. There is no rational argument for grading people on a class curve. That just makes the class a lottery and incentivises sabotaging for others to get an upper hand yourself.

Curve grading does have a place. But that is standardized tests or placing entire cohorts to buckets. So we are talking of hundreds if not thousands of students. For individual schools or classes inside thereof it is wrong method. Either the students know enough of the course material to pass or they do not.

So true. Curve grading works well when the cohort is large and heterogenous. (Like, say, Finnish matriculation exams. >20k people in a single cohort, and each individual exam within the whole thing with at least 5k people in them.)

As far as I'm concerned, curve grading single courses is just as bad as stack ranking at work. And in here, with high concentration of engineers who loathe stack ranking, a disproportionate fraction are somehow in favour of per-course curve grading.

Blind spot? Stockholm syndrome? Go figure.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#593
post #525

Threads like these are always frustrating, because as usual people (programmers in this case) freely air their opinions on how schools are broken with phrases like “we need to fix the system”. As someone who studied pedagogy for years and quit due to an immense frustration with exactly this — how broken the system is — I would encourage you to entertain the thought that maybe, you as a person who is almost in all cas…

I don't think the problem is that complicated - you just can't measure knowledge with a process (or a machine). Only a human can approximate another human's level of understanding. Trying to create a knowledge factory seems to me a pipe dream. All cheating comes from trying to force learning into a rigid mechanical box. Solution? My opinion - remove colleges, bring back guilds. Of course, this is an oversimplificatio…

> My opinion - remove colleges, bring back guilds.

How do you prevent them from becoming corrupt gatekeepers that maximize their own profits while ignoring learning as much as possible?

"measuring understanding mechanically at scale" is exactly the tool to prevent that.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#594
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> HOW do you measure knowledge? And when you decide how, how do you scale it? This is what makes the problem intractable. Measuring knowledge takes time, lots of time, by a skilled person. That does not scale. Since we need (want) scale we necessarily have to use (ever weaker) proxies for measurement. And if there's one thing we do know, you get exactly what you measure for. Hence, the system is not broken - it's wo…

So, the Leibniz argument? Our current system for educating citizens of all ages is already the best it can be, and any change or even reflection upon it is a waste of time.

> any change or even reflection upon it is a waste of time.

That’s a bit extreme; I interpreted their view as, it’s hard to fix because of intractable issues, but it doesn’t mean we can’t have marginal improvements. Radical upheavals and revamps are sketchy.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the problem is that complicated - you just can't measure knowledge with a process (or a machine). Only a human can approximate another human's level of understanding. Trying to create a knowledge factory seems to me a pipe dream. All cheating comes from trying to force learning into a rigid mechanical box. Solution? My opinion - remove colleges, bring back guilds. Of course, this is an oversimplificatio…

It sounds more like we need students to be mentors so that the number of teachers scales with the number of students.

This is what we do in companies with “train-the-trainer” and with satellite/ambassador engineers/teams.

The only thing I know from education that does something similar is “Jena-plan” in elementary school and Teaching Assistants in uni. Nothing in our high school.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#596

> I had been avoiding grading weekly writing assignments because I had many students and no teaching assistant to help me with the grading Bruh. During the remote-only pandemic? Sounds like you were a lazy professor. I get that it's hard to do work, but this is obvious stuff. Give your students easily cheatable assignments and it's no surprise that they cheat.

Not surprising I'm getting hate for this take. Academic douches tend to be lazy and abdicate responsibility. Weak sauce.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#597
I think there is a fundamental error in the teacher behaviour. If a student cheat in a physical class, would they wait until the end of the examn/semester or call it out unmediately? Why did he let it go on and on? With the change of paradigm with remote learning it has been a lot of grey areas, and students principles have been tested. On the teachers side they seem to focus too much in «how clever» they are they can spot the cheating, but did tjey set up the boundaries clearly?

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#598
I don't see a point in blaming students for cheating, or trying to give them a guilty conscious about how they are impacting students in curve grading scenarios.

The moral indignation that I'm seeing in the comments about this issue is just silly as the students are just acting the way humans act. Especially given the fact that most students are in their late teens or early 20's.

Cheating is just human nature, especially that some people see a degree a gateway to success or even as survival (no degree no job, no job no food). And as survival machines, like all beings, people will do whatever it takes to get a degree, including cheating least of all.

While college is an academic institution that is supposed to be about acquiring knowledge, the fact that almost every well paying job requires a degree perverses the incentives leading it to be a place where you get a diploma so you can move on with your life.

So should we just tolerate cheating, with all this in mind? No, I think the burden of preventing cheating should be on the schools themselves to design testing in a way that makes cheating harder than actually learning the subject and to make learning more engaging even for those who are there just to get a diploma. This is hard of course.

An even better solution would be to fix our current system that creates these perverse incentives. But that is even harder and I can't even phantom how that would be done.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#600
A good answer for this problem is just to produce the sort of questions that are fit to open book exams (I.e. resistant to access to materials) and give a different question to each student.

It can be done by varying a bit the parameters of the question for each student and I am sure AI based solutions for producing a lot of questions are possible

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