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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#381

In my degree (Comp Eng) we overlapped with the Comp Sci program a fair amount. Comp Sci was part of the college of mathematics and Comp Eng was part of the college of engineering, which were on opposite sides of campus and organizationally were very separate. The cultures could not have been any more different. The engineering labs were loud, full of collaboration and discussion. The professors would sometimes find o…

I took for-majors Engineering, Physics, and Computer Science classes, 20 years ago. Here's what I saw:

In freshman engineering courses [*], students would gather and do the assignments. They would divide and conquer questions, sharing answers. This was definitely cheating. (I didn't participate. But I didn't seriously consider reporting it either; I wanted to have friends...) The assignments were repetitive and stupid, so this was a rational if dishonest coping strategy. TAs certainly knew this happened. I had a bad habit of skipping dumb assignments. One TA actually emailed me something along the lines of "why don't you just cheat like everyone else".

In physics classes, students would gather and do the assignments. They would each do all the work. When someone got stuck, others would suggest techniques, help them where they were stuck, etc. Collaborative and honest. The assignments had far fewer problems, each unique and involved, done from first principles. Homework was graded on showing (extensive) work as well as the answers. If folks had skipped/copied problems, they would have missed out on great learning opportunities and likely flunked the exams even if they weren't caught.

In computer science classes, I don't recall students gathering to do the assignments. Maybe I just wasn't part of the group. (Many of my friends were in engineering, and most of my academic time was spent in the physics building.) Maybe they just didn't work together, similar to what you observed. What I do know is that a lot of students had very little understanding, and I was surprised they got degrees.

Of course, I prefer the physics approach. It's probably not a discipline-wide thing though as much as that my school had a great physics department and a lousy CS department. More similarities than I expected in your story, though, despite presumably different schools and times.

[*] I dropped my electrical/computer engineering major after freshman year. I graduated with a comp sci major + physics minor. Maybe later engineering courses were different.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds great and all but I honestly have doubts about this software that detects similarities… there’s only so many ways to solve the bland questions that professors lift from books; kind of ironic. I’m assuming it’s basicallly doing AST analysis and it’s no smarter than eliminating things like variables being renamed. They are basically stating that this “software” is 100% accurate. Furthermore it’s then left t…

I used something similar when I was a TA 20 years ago and while your assumption seems reasonable, there are actually a lot of different ways to solve even quite simple tasks and most cheating is very obvious on manual inspection.

Yep... If you're going to go through the effort of completely rewriting a piece of code to try and dodge an AST analysis algorithm, you've effectively just done 70% of the work and put your grade/position at the institution on the line. It's not worth it, and so people don't tend to do that. It's the same thing with plagiarism—students could very well resynthesize a stolen work in their own words. It would still be plagiarism, sure, but it's also putting in a large amount of effort while still being risky.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#383
Now that‘s some stunning sadism Mr. Crump. Watching them run to their doom, letting them collect further violations, investing absurd amounts of time into punishing them. Has R ever been used for something more nefarious?

If a class can be passed by this kind of cheating, it‘s a shit class, simple as that.

Classes need to be designed with the knowledge in mind, that the modern student is a highly social, cooperative creature that grew up with cheating being completely normal.

I designed classes by 80% of credit being given for big, final projects and the verbal, live „defensio style“ explanation they had to do for their projects, with me asking class general and project specific questions that made detecting fraud and grading very easy.

Your saving grace might be that you actually managed to create a somewhat more engaging and useful class after all. But besides that, your behavior was sadistic and frankly, inhumane.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#384

> For example, in this course I ran short multiple choice quizzes each week. Students could take the quiz as many times as they wanted during the week. The quiz questions changed each time (pulled randomly from a pool), and students always got their most recent quiz grade. The quizzes were low stakes. I also told students that taking the quizzes would help them study for the midterms, which would contain questions fr…

And yet low-stakes cheating on these quizzes escalated to blatant cheating on the midterms, which the cheaters bombed once that was thwarted. Classifying this as “studying” is far too generous given the objective evidence of performance.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#385
post #287

I think a lot of people here are missing the root cause of why students cheat. College for the longest time has not had anything to do with learning for the VAST majority of students. You go to college because you have to have a degree to get a job. And you have to have a good GPA on that degree to get a job. College is not about actually learning anything - it's a purely monetary investment, where you go into debt t…

Going to the grocer has for a long time been about the food, not the pleasure of the shopping experience. Given this, why wouldn't you steal?

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#386

> For example, in this course I ran short multiple choice quizzes each week. Students could take the quiz as many times as they wanted during the week. The quiz questions changed each time (pulled randomly from a pool), and students always got their most recent quiz grade. The quizzes were low stakes. I also told students that taking the quizzes would help them study for the midterms, which would contain questions fr…

Yeah I caught that too. Overall very good article, but I did find it bizarre that they were made that students were collecting past quizzes into reference material. This seems like one of the few legitimate uses of these sorts of class groups

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#387
post #325

I've never understood people's attitudes towards cheating, which is perhaps why its so prevalent. People cheat at sports all the time and people just sort of accept it. When people cheat in school, we just kind of go "well, yeah, kids do that, I guess we'll give you a few warnings first." If someone is caught cheating how do I know they didn't cheat in previous classes, but got away with it? Do you really want to go…

> If someone is caught cheating how do I know they didn't cheat in previous classes, but got away with it?

I could be wrong but I don't think this happens that often. If you cheated enough not to understand what was going on in calc 1 may god rest your soul as 2 and 3 are going to be downright impossible. For those types of classes you need to mostly understand the material even have a chance at cheating successfully.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#388

This happened to me in undergrad with an autograded class. I remember soloing the class and thinking that the assignments were super hard. They would post grade averages for assignments and I was doing worse than usual. I remember a TA posting about cheating being an issue. They even released a graph of anonymized student repositories with edges indicating a detected instance of cheating Turned out that a HUGE cohort…

Students will cheat. the solve is to get rid of curving classes in this manner

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#389
post #325

I've never understood people's attitudes towards cheating, which is perhaps why its so prevalent. People cheat at sports all the time and people just sort of accept it. When people cheat in school, we just kind of go "well, yeah, kids do that, I guess we'll give you a few warnings first." If someone is caught cheating how do I know they didn't cheat in previous classes, but got away with it? Do you really want to go…

Most humans have have little to no real integrity. This is why I am hopeful about AGI taking over eventually. (Not murdering people, I hope, just taking over).

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#390

Despite this teacher's miraculous extraction of some character growth from a handful of the cheaters, I still think he should have just failed all of them as soon as he had an airtight case against them. There is no moral or practical justification for tolerating cheaters. They make a mockery of honest students and the higher education as a whole. They're a menace to the society into which they're released with a sta…

Your moralizing and virtue signalling is missing the point.

Cheating, or academic integrity, or "over collaboration" is not a binary action that evil students take, and good student don't.

Instead, cheating is a culture, and institution. And looking at it, in this way, provides a much more helpful framework for solving it, than overmoralizing it, and simply calling cheaters bad.

The reality is, that how much students work together, or are allowed to work together, is a culture that is vastly different on a class by class basis. There are some classes, where the professors explicitly encourage collaboration among students, to the point where the profesor straight up expects that everyone is copying everyone else's homework, and that is OK and encouraged, officially.

And then there are other classes, where talking to anyone else, or asking a single question about homework, is automatically cheating.

And then there are further complications, where there is no official policy on collaboration, and everyone just guesses about what is allowed.

This vast difference between classes and collaboration culture, means that regular people, who would otherwise not cheat at all, will often do so, due to problems with the culture and expectation of the class.

And the way to solve this, is not to engage in extreme moralization, instead it is to set clear guidelines, and address problems as they come up, so things don't get out of control.

Or, in other words, if everyone is doing something, then other people will start to think that it isn't even against the rules and also do it themselves, and the blame is more on the culture and system, than it is on the individuals.

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