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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#361
post #325

I've never understood people's attitudes towards cheating, which is perhaps why its so prevalent. People cheat at sports all the time and people just sort of accept it. When people cheat in school, we just kind of go "well, yeah, kids do that, I guess we'll give you a few warnings first." If someone is caught cheating how do I know they didn't cheat in previous classes, but got away with it? Do you really want to go…

It is probably like the police attitude toward smaller level theft and mugging. Try getting cops to meaningfully respond to a theft or someone mugging you. You will not.

There is just so much bad behaviour in society that we have come to accept it.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#362

This happened to me in undergrad with an autograded class. I remember soloing the class and thinking that the assignments were super hard. They would post grade averages for assignments and I was doing worse than usual. I remember a TA posting about cheating being an issue. They even released a graph of anonymized student repositories with edges indicating a detected instance of cheating Turned out that a HUGE cohort…

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#363
post #337

Cheating is the natural result of an exclusive funnel for entry into the middle class. This has been going on for decades in Asia (which is why Chinese students cheat so much), and now America is finally here as well. Academics like to wax poetic about how students are "only cheating themselves" and "losing out on the educational opportunities", but the reality is much more mercenary and down-to-earth: Either you pas…

> Either you pass this hurdle by hook or by crook, or you spend the rest of your life flipping burgers. It's not a hard choice. Yes, but the assumption is you're passing with the knowledge in your head. Having the career knowledge is what in theory allows you to get the job, and then not flip burgers. I'm not sure how students end up thinking it's literally the number of your grade that makes the difference. Maybe it…

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#364
post #121
post #64

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this… You’re paying so much money for these courses — probably a ridiculous amount, so much you may never recoup — … so at least get everything out of it you can. Otherwise, why sign up in the first place? Let me tell you: essentially no one cares what grade you got in your courses. (Sure, there are cases, but over time they quickly attenuate from “sometimes” to “never” a…

I feel like people who say that "it's so much money, so try and get something out of it" are people who have never had the experience of being a "bad student" and have an immense passion for learning. I really can't say the same. I'm currently in undergrad for electrical engineering, and I do not give a single fuck about the classes I'm in. I have no passion for electrical engineering - I don't wake up excited to mak…

One thing I want to tell you is that, if you don't like what you do every day for decades, the extra money you make by taking that job won't make you happy. I have friend who took EE and CS major in college, got job in SV, making 300k annually, and feels depressed every day because he needs to work on things he has absolutely no interest in. You might think 300k/yr is good, but it's SV so the cost is also high. Many times he regrets that he should have chosen photography and film making when he had the chance. Unfortunately we are not longer young, so there is no easy way back.

I'm not sure how many young people made the choice to study what they study in college by themselves. But if you did, ask yourself if you are willing to make the sacrifice.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#365
post #287

I think a lot of people here are missing the root cause of why students cheat. College for the longest time has not had anything to do with learning for the VAST majority of students. You go to college because you have to have a degree to get a job. And you have to have a good GPA on that degree to get a job. College is not about actually learning anything - it's a purely monetary investment, where you go into debt t…

  have to have a good GPA on that degree to get a job.
Maybe at some big name co, but you will probably learn more at some little self funded place that pays a little less and can't attract the top tier graduates.

After a couple years, get a job at a small startup where you and 5 other people write the entire product. From there you will be a far stronger candidate just about anywhere with a real engineering culture.

My GPA was fairly reasonable, but I worked through college, so I got a position at a large name brand company. Drove me nuts after having worked at places where I had written more code in a single year than most of the lifer's had written in their entire career. That is when I went the startup route, and basically did small companies for ~20 years until wife/kids/stability drove me into the arms of a mid sized company where I only work ~40h/week. Now I write code on the weekends to keep my mind active.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#366
There are a couple reasons why I think it's important for cheating not to be widespread. I've seen The Case Against Education, signalling theory, and all the usual stuff along those lines (well, maybe it's only usual if you have a particularly contrarian friend who never stops talking about it) and while it's made me jaded about where The True Value Of A College Education lies, it didn't make me think "well, it's pointless, so I might as well cheat!"

There are sort of three groups at play here, although the boundaries are fuzzy. Some are truly there to learn, in which case there's not much motivation to cheat. Some are there to get a degree because of its implications in the job market, but don't cheat (for better or for worse). And some are there for the piece of paper and will do whatever it takes to get it. I don't fault these people: maybe they have to maintain a certain GPA for a visa or scholarship, or maybe they got COVID and an inflexible professor told them as of 2022 it's "policy" not to offer extensions "just" because of COVID. At least, I wouldn't fault cheaters were it not for the knock-on effects.

Part of me says the faster we dilute the value of a degree (by granting them to people who cheat their way through) the faster we get rid of the wasteful, cost-disease-ridden, elitist status quo for universities (at least in the US) as the amount of entropy afforded to a prospective employer by the presence of a degree drops to zero. But I also want all the work (and $$$) I have put into getting a degree to mean something. Every time someone cheats their way through a course and, despite their degree or GPA, is less competent on the job because of it, they marginally decrease the school's reputation: if the last person with those credentials wasn't actually that good, why would the next? I'm not sure how much this is happening yet, but I think it will increase in the future if cheating remains easy and common. Even discounting "degree seigniorage", if a professor grades on a curve, obviously students that don't cheat will be at a disadvantage. It's not really correct to say "cheaters don't affect you, just focus on your own work."

So why not have everyone cheat? First of all, some people actually want to learn something. Second of all, I think most people would like it less than I if universities and their degrees lost their cultural and economic cachet. Finally, I can't believe I have to say this, but cheating is inequitable: some are better at cheating than others. In the past (and probably still today, but what do I know) this was frats with banks of past assignments and tests. In the last few years, it goes as in the article: someone makes a group chat, though if they have an ounce of sense they won't post a link to it in a chat the professor is monitoring, at least if they intend to cheat through it. Invites spread organically from student to student or from DNS-like "hub" chats where people can ask for invites to any class's group chat. It would be really bad for cheaters if professors were on the "hub", able to join every class's group chat, so invites to the "hub" are guarded more zealously. Obviously they'd never be shared in a Zoom chat or other official platform, so online students (most of them, in 2020 and 2021) are left out. Offline, less socially connected people are less likely to get invited. Personally, even putting morals aside, I would not have been able to cheat if I wanted in the past few years. Cheating was everywhere, but I was anxious enough as it is actually doing the work; the added anxiety of cheating and maybe getting caught (especially in such a dramatic way as in this post!) would have been untenable. Maybe I should demand exam answer keys as a Section 504 accomodation...

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#367
post #230

I recently took a CS class at Stanford with an interesting policy on cheating. While cheating almost certainly happened during the course, at the end of the quarter the course staff made a public post allowing any student who cheated to make a private message to the staff admitting they've done so. If a student admitted to cheating, while they would face academic disciplinary action (i.e. receiving a failing or low g…

That sounds great and all but I honestly have doubts about this software that detects similarities… there’s only so many ways to solve the bland questions that professors lift from books; kind of ironic. I’m assuming it’s basicallly doing AST analysis and it’s no smarter than eliminating things like variables being renamed. They are basically stating that this “software” is 100% accurate. Furthermore it’s then left t…

I implemented the widely used MOSS algorithm (mentioned by a sibling) for my CS department in my senior year. That algorithm doesn't do AST analysis, it just looks at the plain text in a way that is resistant to most small refactorings. MOSS compares sets of k-grams (strings of k characters) between every pair of projects that are under test and produces the number of shared k-grams for each pair of projects. On any given assignment in a given semester, there's a baseline amount of of similarity that is "normal". You then test for outliers, and that gives you the projects that need closer scrutiny.

On the test data we were given (anonymized assignments from prior semesters together with known public git repos), we never had a false positive. On the flip side, small refactorings like variable renames or method re-ordering still turned up above the "suspicious" threshold because there would be enough remaining matching k-grams to make that pair of projects an outlier.

Our school explicitly did not use the algorithm's numbers as evidence of cheating and did not involve the TAs--the numbers were used only to point the professor in the right direction. We excluded all k-grams that featured in the professor's materials (slides, examples, boilerplate code). It also helped that they only used it on the more complex assignments that should have had unique source code (our test data was a client and server for an Android app).

My sense was that this was a pretty good system. Cheaters stood out in the outliers test by several orders of magnitude, so false positives are extremely unlikely. At the same time, the k-gram approach means that if you actually manage to mangle your project enough that it's not detected as copied, you had to perform refactorings in the process that clearly show you know how the program works--anything less still leaves you above the safe zone of shared k-grams.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#368
post #287

I think a lot of people here are missing the root cause of why students cheat. College for the longest time has not had anything to do with learning for the VAST majority of students. You go to college because you have to have a degree to get a job. And you have to have a good GPA on that degree to get a job. College is not about actually learning anything - it's a purely monetary investment, where you go into debt t…

We're going to college at the worst time in our lives. When I was in college I did exactly what you described. I didn't really cheat much (I remember just one time), but all I cared about was grades and getting a job. I couldn't have cared less about learning or retaining anything. And I didn't learn much. This strategy worked out well for me, but it was a huge waste of time. I'm in my 30s now and I would absolutely…

It's not a waste of time, only caring about grades and getting a job is the most efficient use of time. I would've loved to learn too, but when passing classes impact the rest of your life, cheating and taking easier classes to maximize GPA are the right choices.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#369
post #287

I think a lot of people here are missing the root cause of why students cheat. College for the longest time has not had anything to do with learning for the VAST majority of students. You go to college because you have to have a degree to get a job. And you have to have a good GPA on that degree to get a job. College is not about actually learning anything - it's a purely monetary investment, where you go into debt t…

People were cheating because they were expecting everyone else to cheat.

In general, cheating isn’t common in college.

This was simple game theory during the pandemic.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#370
post #287

I think a lot of people here are missing the root cause of why students cheat. College for the longest time has not had anything to do with learning for the VAST majority of students. You go to college because you have to have a degree to get a job. And you have to have a good GPA on that degree to get a job. College is not about actually learning anything - it's a purely monetary investment, where you go into debt t…

If someone went to college with the belief that only the degree at the end mattered and that they weren't going to learn anything along the way, I can see how they might convince themselves that cheating is a low-risk shortcut toward that end goal. I do not subscribe to that belief and have learned quite a bit by trying to absorb the lessons earnestly, as opposed to taking shortcuts. I have also had the experience wh…

Students will also have an opinion on what classes they think are important, and what classes they are only taking because they are required.
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