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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#251

Post by jseliger »

jmull wrote: post #64

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this… You’re paying so much money for these courses — probably a ridiculous amount, so much you may never recoup — … so at least get everything out of it you can. Otherwise, why sign up in the first place? Let me tell you: essentially no one cares what grade you got in your courses. (Sure, there are cases, but over time they quickly attenuate from “sometimes” to “never” a…

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this…

Bryan Caplan's book concerns precisely this subject: https://jakeseliger.com/2018/03/12/the-case-against-educatio...

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#252

Post by jl2718 »

renonce wrote: post #237
pryce wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my understanding of cryptocurrency and the people in it, I don't have the premise that founding a billion dollar (or 10 billion dollar) cryptocurrency is laudable. It strikes me that your comment would read by crypto fanbase as a success story, and yet as crypto detractors like myself as even further reason to regard them as terrible... you may have just invented the "completely unintentional if-by-whiskey argum…

If it were a 216B cryptocurrency then it would indeed be laudable. It’s Ethereum and it is innovating in every aspect.

The first is not revolutionary nor a swindle. The second is on that level or more so.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#253

Post by furyofantares »

jmull wrote: post #64

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this… You’re paying so much money for these courses — probably a ridiculous amount, so much you may never recoup — … so at least get everything out of it you can. Otherwise, why sign up in the first place? Let me tell you: essentially no one cares what grade you got in your courses. (Sure, there are cases, but over time they quickly attenuate from “sometimes” to “never” a…

Grades are meaningful during school for all sorts of reason, of course not failing is the most meaningful, but so is not losing financial aid/scholarships, or your parents are paying for it and care, or you want to get into certain programs. If they aren't meaningful after school then they are revealed as a farce. So why not cheat. And they're made even more farcical if other students are cheating.

And then, culturally, we don't tell you that you need actual skills to get an actual job out of school. We do tell you that you need a degree. And even if you believe a degree is necessary but not sufficient, it may not be at all clear to you that the skills you need are the same as what you're learning in school.

I never cheated, probably because my strongest skill is learning raw material on my. But I get the perspective. You're paying for a degree and would like to actually receive what you're paying for.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#254

Post by dbalatero »

soared wrote: post #40

I'm not really a fan of how the author handled the situation, but it is clear they care about their students and want them to learn. But when the second semester begins and the author silently joins the new groupchat... I feel like that is a lack of integrity.

Can you explain further what you mean by "integrity"?

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#255

Post by urthor »

j7ake wrote: post #201

This was a great read. I wonder if it's actually more time-efficient at some point to just do an oral exam rather than these paper exams. In oral exams, it's obvious whether you know the material or not. It may appear more time-consuming, but considering there is no need to grade or worry about cheating, you may come out ahead.

I did that for one class. It was both extremely time efficient and effective.

The downside to oral examinations however is you can't really grade curve them.

Which is a beautiful thing, but also not what the faculty wants.

The faculty grades mostly because they want to cull the chaff from the hardest working grad student candidates.

They aren't after pure comprehension, they want hard workers.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#256

Post by jackson1442 »

realitysballs wrote: post #4

I hate to be a cynic here but I feel like education should be engineered in a manner that either : (A) assumes cheating will take place whenever possible and create curriculum , assignments, quizzes and exams with this in mind. (B) disincentivize cheating. This is tough to do but if someone is motivated not by a grade but by the experience or knowledge gain itself cheating is no longer of interest.

Strongly agree with (A). As a current college student, the most interesting assignments are the hardest to cheat on.

That is, I’d strongly prefer an exam where I can write an essay to show my understanding of a topic to a series of multiple choice questions where I just regurgitate the lectures.

Unfortunately, most of my professors reuse old content verbatim (usually content they didn’t even write themselves in the first place) and put it in the easiest to grade format possible (multiple choice/auto graded math). My CS classes are concerningly light on actually writing code.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#257

Post by jmull »

wormer wrote: post #121
jmull wrote: post #64

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this… You’re paying so much money for these courses — probably a ridiculous amount, so much you may never recoup — … so at least get everything out of it you can. Otherwise, why sign up in the first place? Let me tell you: essentially no one cares what grade you got in your courses. (Sure, there are cases, but over time they quickly attenuate from “sometimes” to “never” a…

I feel like people who say that "it's so much money, so try and get something out of it" are people who have never had the experience of being a "bad student" and have an immense passion for learning. I really can't say the same. I'm currently in undergrad for electrical engineering, and I do not give a single fuck about the classes I'm in. I have no passion for electrical engineering - I don't wake up excited to mak…

> I do it because it's a good job and I want money

I wonder what you think will happen after you get that job?

(Either go in a different direction now, or else you might as well start learning how to keep your head above water in your EE career now.)

edit: I should add: I posted the comment you’re replying to and in regard to this:

> …are people who have never had the experience of being a "bad student"

Nah… I’ve been a bad student — just based on averages, likely worse than you. My only “special” skill is that after multiple crushing failures I realized, “hey.. maybe I should think more than zero steps ahead” when considering my many pressing life problems. In retrospect, I’ve found it’s like a superpower because it seems like almost no one bothers to do it, so you can get ahead in almost any circumstance.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#258

Post by pclmulqdq »

wormer wrote: post #121
jmull wrote: post #64

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this… You’re paying so much money for these courses — probably a ridiculous amount, so much you may never recoup — … so at least get everything out of it you can. Otherwise, why sign up in the first place? Let me tell you: essentially no one cares what grade you got in your courses. (Sure, there are cases, but over time they quickly attenuate from “sometimes” to “never” a…

I feel like people who say that "it's so much money, so try and get something out of it" are people who have never had the experience of being a "bad student" and have an immense passion for learning. I really can't say the same. I'm currently in undergrad for electrical engineering, and I do not give a single fuck about the classes I'm in. I have no passion for electrical engineering - I don't wake up excited to mak…

When I was in school, I inadvertently realized that the biggest cheat code was not cheating. Professors will open doors wide open for you if you are honest with them and engage with them, and it's actually usually easier than going to all that effort to cheat and not get caught.

During college, I focused on learning a ton from the few courses that I found interesting (and where I learned new material), and I passed the rest with a B- average. As a result, I got to work with several professors on research and as a TA, and that totally overshadowed my low-3's GPA in the job market. "Research courses" with no requirements other than work I found interesting let me pad my GPA. I graduated in the bottom 30% of the class having done two years of research and taught a course (as the instructor, not a TA). I left for a position with the highest salary of anyone in my class, and I had a company literally begging for me to interview after I turned them down for asking about my GPA.

These are opportunities which you cannot get if you do not engage honestly with the material you are learning. Professors usually know when you are cheating, and professors talk - they may know that you are a cheater the moment you step foot in their classroom. They don't want to report it, though, because it's a lot of work to gather evidence and go through the process.

Some professors of required courses are happy to help you if you are honestly not very engaged with the material in their course. Some have egos that are too big for that, but a lot of them don't. They understand that the course is required, so you're going to get a B or a C if you don't cheat and you want to focus on other things. All they want is for you to learn something from them, and you will still learn a thing or two by doing half their homework honestly.

The back door in the job market is a lot bigger than the front door - a lot of people get jobs from referrals rather than the traditional application process, and most of the really great jobs are found that way. Cheating at school almost completely shuts the back door in the entry level job market, since your professors and fellow students will know you are doing it. Don't underestimate what you're giving up.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#259

Post by paulpauper »

geoduck14 wrote: post #167
jmull wrote: post #64

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this… You’re paying so much money for these courses — probably a ridiculous amount, so much you may never recoup — … so at least get everything out of it you can. Otherwise, why sign up in the first place? Let me tell you: essentially no one cares what grade you got in your courses. (Sure, there are cases, but over time they quickly attenuate from “sometimes” to “never” a…

I feel a strong need to debunk some falsehoods here. First, to be clear. DO NOT CHEAT. Ok. Grades DO matter. When I graduated, there were several companies that wouldn't interview me because I didn't have the grades. I had a 3.2 ish. That meant I had to get a job slightly outside of my degree - which impacted my entire career (12 years amd counting). Also, you can't lie about your grades - they will ask for your tran…

agree. I never cheated college although I did in high school a bit . The profs are pretty good at picking up on cheating, and I saw some of my classmates get busted. But I can def. understand why some would cheat.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#260

Post by bitwize »

jmull wrote: post #64

I honestly don’t get widespread cheating like this… You’re paying so much money for these courses — probably a ridiculous amount, so much you may never recoup — … so at least get everything out of it you can. Otherwise, why sign up in the first place? Let me tell you: essentially no one cares what grade you got in your courses. (Sure, there are cases, but over time they quickly attenuate from “sometimes” to “never” a…

And let me tell you, the difference between Cs and As as an undergrad is the difference between getting a job in the industry and getting a job making $200k or more at FAANG straight out of college, that will put you in touch with the smart and/or moneyed people who are going to make you a multimillionaire. And you want to be a multimillionaire because this is the USA and that is the only path to being able to afford the medical care you may very well need especially in later life.

Graduate programs are also GPA-gated. So best get those grades up if you want your license to science (i.e., a Ph.D.).

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