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Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

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Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#251

Post by bowsamic »

the_only_law wrote: post #250
nisegami wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aella_Girl has a reputation in other communities for being a bit unhinged, so that tracks.

May not be a popular opinion, but a lot of the “rationalist” scene often feels more like a club of sophists.

Hmm

https://knowingless.com/get-my-eggs/

> Get My Eggs

> I think my genes are wonderful, I’d like to see more of them in the world, and I don’t have any immediate plans for reproducing myself.

> If you’re interested in using my eggs to reproduce, I’m down to discuss this in exchange for payment for my time and fear of needles. I have ancestry, health testing, and family history I can share.

> Contact me at aellasinbox@gmail.com; sometimes my responses go to spam, so be sure to check spam!

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#253

Post by tmh88j »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #236
Jasp3r wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole issue of JavaScript is that the standard library is worthless, so people have to write additions to keep yourself sane as a developer. This makes it seem that there are 5 billion ways to do something, because there are. Just use TypeScript, it will fix all the issues you have with the language itself. Typing + build time errors + import/export syntax. If you want to run some this in the browser, and don't u…

I rarely, if ever, have to reach for anything outside of the standard library for computation/algorithms. ES6 added most, if not all, the building blocks to build 99% of the computation you'll ever need. What's missing that you'd deem as worthless?

> ES6 added most, if not all, the building blocks to build 99% of the computation you'll ever need. What's missing that you'd deem as worthless?

Not the same person, but date/time manipulation is one area I've encountered that's incredibly frustrating (especially when timezones are involved) without libraries like moment. Cross-browser functionality only compounds the issues.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#254

Post by longrod »

lolinder wrote: post #221
longrod wrote: post #212

It's still mostly the same. Nothing much has happened in the JS space in the last 2 years that would make all this easier. The JS ecosystem suffers from a huge issue of duplication. There's multiple module systems, multiple ways to make a function, multiple ways to make a class, multiple ways to make a variable, multiple ways to loop over the array. Some of those exist in other languages as well but it's pretty bad i…

> The module system fragmentation is the worst thing that can happen to a language. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything remotely close to a bridge between CommonJS & ESM so both can coexist peacefully. If you turn towards one, node starts screaming about how ESM modules can't contain require and if you go the other way, well then CommonJS doesn't have import. It's possible it's more confusing on backend node, but…

You don't realize what's required for all that to work properly. Webpack + Babel at the least. Expecting that a beginner developer will have to learn these to write even simple programs is absurd.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#255

Post by Dudeman112 »

alexb_ wrote: post #118
lionkor wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only reason this barrier was ever breached for this person was due to their large twitter following I feel like their approach to solving the problem actually does represent how most people deal with it - they ASK someone. There are hundreds of massive programming discord servers, with extremely engaged tutors, helpers, and resources. If you want to learn to program, you'll need guidance, and I think that's OK.…

Have you ever actually tried to do this? Programmers are extremely opinionated people. If you somehow manage to get past the barrier of "pretending to look smart so you can even ask a question without getting flamed to hell and back (hello, stackoverflow!)" you will be met with people suggesting different things, which quickly devolves into a giant argument about which thing is better and why this guy is so stupid fo…

>I doubt anyone has enough patience for the next question of "what's a terminal"

Have you spent time trying to teach people stuff?

Most people have no idea whatsoever how to learn things. Instead of asking "what's a terminal?" and getting a grunt in response, they won't even ask.

Learning things greatly outside your expertise needs a huge time and effort investment towards grokking the basics of the subject.

Most adults are goal-oriented, which means they won't do the hard work of really getting the basics, nor even think that maybe they should be asking, reading and writing down stuff they don't know that won't immediately help with their goal, but is fundamental to not end up bumbling about cluelessly.

The standard behaviour is like trying to solve differential equations without knowing what a function is. Just trying stuff works if what you are trying to do is piss easy, and it won't work if it requires any building blocks / isn't piss easy.

Instead of looking at a term they don't understand and grinding until they understand it (which is often a recursive endeavour), they are just trying to make it work.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#256

Post by donatj »

gernb wrote: post #31

sounds like the same experience I have with pretty much every language I'm not used to. I just want to try this C++, download, unzip, oh it's windows so .project file. Fine, redo on windows , oh it's 3 versions of vstuido old and says it wants to upgrade , okay. Hmm errors. Try to fix. Now it's getting linking error. repeat the same with xcode and any project in c, c++, objc, swift okay how about ruby? oh I have old…

I have been writing JavaScript professionally for nearly 20 years. I try my damndest to keep up, but the fact of the matter is the ecosystem is garbage. It’s really not a not-knowing-the-language thing. It’s a legacy of years and years of incompatible tooling requiring even more tooling to work around nightmare scenario. Node modules not working in the browser without translation was the original sin that kicked the whole nightmare off.

Nothing ever works like a sane person would expect. When I do get a working typescript + webpack setup it’s almost entirely by accident. I stumbled upon something that works? Just avoid touching it at all costs.

Recently I wanted to load an AMD module in Deno and just about gave my self an aneurism before giving up hours later.

I have worked in dozens of languages over my career, and not encountered as much of a clusterf*ck as JavaScript anywhere else. I have never worked with anything before where so few people had any idea how it actually worked and just prayed that it continues.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#257

Post by giantrobot »

newaccount74 wrote: post #149
kaoD wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> needlessly complicated IMO this is unfair characterization. If using Photoshop is driving, programming is building an internal combustion engine vehicle. You cannot expect to just randomly google for car-making tutorials and get an SUV done in a weekend. Heck, you can't even expect to be able to build a very simple combustion engine from basic principles without a lot of study. I'm not saying this is Aella's fault…

I don't think this is a good analogy. Not every programming project is a project that takes hundreds of skilled engineers. Not every programming project needs to deliver a product for others to use. What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard.

> What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard.

What Aella wants to actually do and how she describes what she wants to do may not have any relationship to each other. So we've got a potential X/Y problem.

Then there's just the jumping in assuming Python is like Photoshop. You can "learn Photoshop" just by playing around with it. You won't be a graphic designer after a week of goofing around but you can make a cool logo for a web page or touch up photos you took with your phone.

What Photoshop is to a selfie, Python is not to a CSV file. Even "CSV file" is ambiguous because that can actually mean a lot of different things.

The difference between the Aella case and the story in the OP is Aella is assuming Python is Photoshop for CSV files. The OP knows JavaScript is a language and has a notion of how npm is supposed to work. Aella got bit by ignorance and stubbornness. The OP got bit by terrible tools.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#258

Post by thepasswordis »

Verdex wrote: post #235
thepasswordis wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Download python. Data = open(“file.csv”, “r”) For line in data.readlines(): Print(line.split”,”)

Well... Blah1, blah2, "blah3, blah4", blah5 Maybe using a library is a better route.

Okay sure, but I have processed millions of lines of csv data using readlines and split.

Eventually yeah you’re going to run into something with characters you don’t like, but that’s just a teaching/learning moment!

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#259

Post by [deleted] »

laputan_machine wrote: post #90
michaelsalim wrote: post #8

Module resolution is quite a mess in JS at the moment. With the steady move to ESM, hopefully things will get better soon. In this transition period, it's painful. Even for those that deal with JS everyday, most don't actually understand the intricacies of CommonJS & ESM.

ESM is the biggest waste of time in the JS ecosystem. People are trying to move thing to ESM before it's even in a stable enough state. Mixing ESM and commonjs is a PITA. I've been a JS-mostly dev since 2013, and I've had enough of ESM ideologues. See https://github.com/sindresorhus/meta/discussions/15 for just ONE example of this mess. I don't know why it's become this ideological war where people are 'testing the w…

[deleted]

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#260

Post by AltruisticGapHN »

drawkbox wrote: post #148
AltruisticGapHN wrote: post #84

We just need all this tooling to go in the browser.. which is where it always belonged. That was the purpose of JS. To "just run" in the browser. It's getting there but very slowly. As for my own rant, simply the fact that Microsoft, of all places are the ones who run TypeScript and now the proposal to add TS to native JS.. is part of the issue. MS has zero imagination. JS needs native typing and it shouldn't be done…

TypeScript and C# are both great languages from Anders Hejlsberg. The Danish know how to design a language, C# developer was Mads Torgersen. Microsoft employs them so they want it used more and people like it. Fun fact: Anders Hejlsberg also designed Turbo Pascal, Delphi which were huge in their day. I agree though, JS needs to just run in the browser. All the tooling is really a leaky abstraction or unnecessary guts…

Good points.

> Webpack is an abomination to anything simple and clear, many dev hours are lost on it.

Check out Vite. It's basically Webpack with sensible defaults. Still the same bundling paradigm but it's been so much easier for me to use. Also way way easier to add plugins in Vite.

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