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Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

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Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#161

Post by krapp »

atemerev wrote: post #109
mattlondon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you try simple vanilla javascript, then you may be surprised at how pythonic it is in cerain ways - e.g. just open a browser (any browser!) and you have a javascript REPL read to go in the developer tools. Node severely complicates and confuses things, but node alone is not javascript. Vanilla JS is IMHO a very nice and expressive language, and you do not need any of the Node/Webpack/React/Vue/jquery/whatever to d…

Oh, there is another way to code with JS on the server side? Something else besides node?

Don't code with JS on the server side at all. There's no real advantage to having JS both on the server and in the client, and there are plenty of alternatives that actually support the features Typescript and the like pretend exist in JS, but really don't.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#162

Post by maxloh »

hudo wrote: post #81

My experience also. As a backend engineer trying to create a front end app, the whole toolchain of JS, bundlers, minifiers, Typescript, React... is basically; works if you have one magical init script that wires up everything, and much more than you really need since its tailored for more complex apps, but if you need just simplest thing, like run Typescript app in browser, well, good luck with that! Hundreds of tuto…

It is not quite hard to learn actually. You just need to go through the webpack Concepts section[0]. Documentations in the JavaScript ecosystem are quite good and explanatory compared to other languages (like Java).

Not every front-end developers learn the internals of the tool they chose, like create-react-app. Most of them settled down if the solution "just work".

[0]: https://webpack.js.org/concepts/

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#163

Post by mattlondon »

rhodysurf wrote: post #150
mattlondon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you try simple vanilla javascript, then you may be surprised at how pythonic it is in cerain ways - e.g. just open a browser (any browser!) and you have a javascript REPL read to go in the developer tools. Node severely complicates and confuses things, but node alone is not javascript. Vanilla JS is IMHO a very nice and expressive language, and you do not need any of the Node/Webpack/React/Vue/jquery/whatever to d…

Python is a mess too! There is pip which works great(if you’re lucky), but then the scientific community moves to a different variant of cinda like every two months, which just isn’t necessary usually and way more complicated than just using pip

Oh yeah I personally dislike python a lot because of all the pip and easy_install and anaconda nonsense that exists (existed?). It is a shame that python for some reason became the defacto ML language that people use - I do not really understand how that came to pass (sure there are lots of libraries that help with ML now, but that is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation)

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#164

Post by thepasswordis »

moribunda wrote: post #113
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

This thread for me looks like a narcissistic attention seeking rather than real process. She could simply start learning on datacamp - i went back to it after many years and it's perfect. Low level of entry, "box where you write python code and it runs", you don't have to install pandas, but course will teach you to do it if you want. She began this thread from saying that she started a few courses... Hard to believe…

Read the rest of this persons twitter, or their website for that matter.

No I don’t think there is anything enlightening whatsoever about their experience “trying” to learn to program. They spent 10 minutes installing the interpreter, and then got upset for their social medial followers because they weren’t immediately able to write software to do something useful with their CSV.

I cannot think of any other discipline where “I bought a woodworking shop and then couldn’t immediately make cabinets 10 minutes after walking inside” would be considered insightful towards anything other than the person writing it.

There are SO many people who spend their time trying to help others program. Literally thousands of them. “Aella” could have spent an hour watching any of their videos or reading any of their tutorials instead of this.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#165

Post by elorant »

alexb_ wrote: post #72
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

Was going to edit this in but it quickly turned into a related rant about the state of things: if you don't want that, scroll past. The real problem is that there's no more room for the technological "middle class". We've gotten to the point where you cannot be SLIGHTLY interested in computers, want to make a quick app for yourself, or make something small to share with the world. You either have to have no interest…

Or you just ignore all the shiny new things and go with older technologies that work like a charm. I for one, still write code in jQuery, and don't plan to switch at least for the next five years.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#166

Post by aahortwwy »

newaccount74 wrote: post #149
kaoD wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> needlessly complicated IMO this is unfair characterization. If using Photoshop is driving, programming is building an internal combustion engine vehicle. You cannot expect to just randomly google for car-making tutorials and get an SUV done in a weekend. Heck, you can't even expect to be able to build a very simple combustion engine from basic principles without a lot of study. I'm not saying this is Aella's fault…

I don't think this is a good analogy. Not every programming project is a project that takes hundreds of skilled engineers. Not every programming project needs to deliver a product for others to use. What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard.

> What Aella wants to do is something pretty simple, and it's frustratinc that this is so hard.

It's not that hard.

Doing it like a Real Data Scientist is hard, but also completely unnecessary for a beginner non-programmer. That doesn't stop well-meaning folks from advising that approach (install pandas, Jupyter, anaconda, etc.) and overwhelming people.

The Python standard library is batteries included. IDLE exists.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#167

Post by thepasswordis »

aahortwwy wrote: post #132
alexb_ wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An astonishing number of people here are missing the point. Doing something like "making a small script to analyze CSVs" has become a massively complicated undertaking requiring you to follow random guides that might be 6 months old (practically half a century in these circles), install random programs and dependencies using other random programs and dependencies that you don't even understand, and do many steps that…

Download Python. import csv ?

Download python.

Data = open(“file.csv”, “r”)

For line in data.readlines(): Print(line.split”,”)

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#168

Post by wrp »

aahortwwy wrote: post #116
alexb_ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was going to edit this in but it quickly turned into a related rant about the state of things: if you don't want that, scroll past. The real problem is that there's no more room for the technological "middle class". We've gotten to the point where you cannot be SLIGHTLY interested in computers, want to make a quick app for yourself, or make something small to share with the world. You either have to have no interest…

This just isn't true, though. I have quite a few non-technical colleagues who know just enough Python to Get Shit Done. My father (a writer) taught himself R for research purposes and is productive with it. Universal Paperclips has a super-basic JavaScript codebase[0] but was a really popular game. Thing is, if you search "how to do X in Python" you're going to get a bunch of resources aimed at professionals because…

But are they building software tools that are useful and stable enough to distribute? That's the level of capability he is talking about.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#169

Post by chiefalchemist »

I'm currently reading "The Design of Everyday Things" by Don Norman.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Thing...

And a couple of books ago I read "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Make_Me_Think

You'll see both on must-read lists for design and design thinking. But many of the concepts - sometimes in an abstract sort of way - apply to engineering.

Krug's is relatively short and easy read. Norman is broad and thorough. Both deserve their tag of "highly recommended."

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#170

Post by moribunda »

alexb_ wrote: post #142
moribunda wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manipulating csv has become way easier than it was. You have: 1. Spreadsheets where you can import this data and manipulate it visually 2. CLI tools made especially to work on csv, with fancy colors, shortcuts, examples 3. Visual tools for data analysis like google data studio, power bi etc. Where you basically dragon drop the data and pick charts 4. RStudio where you can load your data using file->open and then copy…

swear to god if one more person talks about the specifics of this illustrative case, and then goes on to explain how they are so silly and should have used tool "xyz" my head is going to explode

I'm not sure if you've read my comment.

I was replying to your: > Yes, it's incredibly complex. It doesn't have to be

It's not complex.

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