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Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

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Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#131

Post by alexb_ »

alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

An astonishing number of people here are missing the point. Doing something like "making a small script to analyze CSVs" has become a massively complicated undertaking requiring you to follow random guides that might be 6 months old (practically half a century in these circles), install random programs and dependencies using other random programs and dependencies that you don't even understand, and do many steps that seem like completely nonsense.

Yes, it's incredibly complex. It doesn't have to be and a lot of it is completely unnecessary, driven by the tech world's inability to stick with literally anything for more than a few years before collectively deciding it's all trash and you should REALLY be using this brand new thing that only half works instead. It doesn't need to be this hard, and that's what I'm trying to say. Using this to shit on the person for thinking their simple task would be simple is completely missing the point - if anything, it proves it.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#132

Post by aahortwwy »

alexb_ wrote: post #131
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

An astonishing number of people here are missing the point. Doing something like "making a small script to analyze CSVs" has become a massively complicated undertaking requiring you to follow random guides that might be 6 months old (practically half a century in these circles), install random programs and dependencies using other random programs and dependencies that you don't even understand, and do many steps that…

Download Python.

import csv

?

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#134

Post by mft_ »

alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

Honestly, reading the thread from my perspective (as a self-taught amateur) I get some of the frustration, but also see that the tweeter was their own worst enemy.

The basic basics - how to install Python, handle modules, and maybe execute scripts, would have been dealt with in the first few minutes of many beginner tutorials - and would have handled all of their initial teething frustrations.

And while I get the desire to build something real (I don’t think I’ve ever completed a full tutorial as I always dive off into what I wanted to make in the first place) not even being willing to sit for an hour to learn the basics is far beyond ‘goal oriented’ - and is obviously seriously limiting and self-defeating.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#135

Post by BlargMcLarg »

lionkor wrote: post #98
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

> the only reason this barrier was ever breached for this person was due to their large twitter following I feel like their approach to solving the problem actually does represent how most people deal with it - they ASK someone. There are hundreds of massive programming discord servers, with extremely engaged tutors, helpers, and resources. If you want to learn to program, you'll need guidance, and I think that's OK.…

Mind you, I agree with most. However:

>With that, it's trivial to pick up almost any tech afterwards.

The fact most of the market does not align with this at all kind of shows to me the contrast between "passionate people willing to help get stuff done" and "a brutal corporate market where everything not perfect nets you a fat zero, despite projects being way more samey and boring". The job market for juniors is absolutely brutal and it is already expanding to other levels to a point where if you mess up or don't have the "right experiences", you're still effectively a junior still according to the market. Through no fault of your own. Couple that with a "we're looking for i+1 experienced people to do i-1 work" mentality and the number of corporations which don't do this being extremely limited.

On top of that, tech also has a large "trial-and-error" part to it which most people should be willing to acknowledge. If we're not mutating upon existing solutions, we might as well just package the existing thing into an instant solution. The mutating on existing solutions is the difficult part.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#136

Post by Angostura »

alexb_ wrote: post #72
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

Was going to edit this in but it quickly turned into a related rant about the state of things: if you don't want that, scroll past. The real problem is that there's no more room for the technological "middle class". We've gotten to the point where you cannot be SLIGHTLY interested in computers, want to make a quick app for yourself, or make something small to share with the world. You either have to have no interest…

Whatever you think of it, I think that MS tries to cater for these people with things like Flow and PowerApps with Office 365

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#137

Post by moribunda »

alexb_ wrote: post #131
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

An astonishing number of people here are missing the point. Doing something like "making a small script to analyze CSVs" has become a massively complicated undertaking requiring you to follow random guides that might be 6 months old (practically half a century in these circles), install random programs and dependencies using other random programs and dependencies that you don't even understand, and do many steps that…

Manipulating csv has become way easier than it was.

You have: 1. Spreadsheets where you can import this data and manipulate it visually 2. CLI tools made especially to work on csv, with fancy colors, shortcuts, examples 3. Visual tools for data analysis like google data studio, power bi etc. Where you basically dragon drop the data and pick charts 4. RStudio where you can load your data using file->open and then copy some simple commands to work on it 5. No-code tools where you can copy paste the data and add functionality by clicking through tutorials 6. All kinds of online notebooks where you don't have to install pandas...

It has not became harder.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#138

Post by o-o- »

alexb_ wrote: post #72
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

Was going to edit this in but it quickly turned into a related rant about the state of things: if you don't want that, scroll past. The real problem is that there's no more room for the technological "middle class". We've gotten to the point where you cannot be SLIGHTLY interested in computers, want to make a quick app for yourself, or make something small to share with the world. You either have to have no interest…

I think you sum it up well. That gap extends to more than JavaScript.

When I was four I could operate our TV: turn on, choose channel and adjust the volume. One device. One remote control. Bach then four year olds could also operate phones and record players. When I was five me and my friends could operate a tape recorder, copy music, record music, create tapes and physically share with friends and family.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#140

Post by alex_smart »

alexb_ wrote: post #72
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

Was going to edit this in but it quickly turned into a related rant about the state of things: if you don't want that, scroll past. The real problem is that there's no more room for the technological "middle class". We've gotten to the point where you cannot be SLIGHTLY interested in computers, want to make a quick app for yourself, or make something small to share with the world. You either have to have no interest…

I think in this particular case, the problem was just picking the wrong tool for the job. Python is the primary language used for data science these days, but it is not particularly designed for it. It is a general purpose programming language. If they had chosen something like R, their path would have been a lot smoother.
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